SPANDAU BALLET

Jim McDougall · 17th February 2025, 01:48 AM

Here is a selection of some of the other aviation machine guns from various other plane types in combat vs. the German fighters & Spandaus. I am uncertain how many of these were there along with other Maxims and regular ground machine guns, but many!

Jim McDougall · 17th February 2025, 01:53 AM

There was one large scale WWI fighter plane hanging from the ceiling, not sure what type it was but the engine front resembles those on DH-4, but those were two seat. Sure dwarfs my 1/72 scale 'air force' !

Jim McDougall · 17th February 2025, 04:03 PM

As admittedly a novice with firearms in general, I have looked further into some aspects regarding these WWI machine guns and elements of their use and issues. It would seem that an obvious issue would be the likely jamming of the gun, as this sort of issue in the air would have been hard to resolve while the pilot was trying to control his plane and experiencing the dynamics of combat at hand.

In previous post I noted that the Red Baron's guns were jammed at the time he was killed as flying low to ground after altercation with Canadian pilots flying Sopwith Camels. Looking further, the plot thickens:

Apparently in the outset of the rather more intense dogfight he had been involved in with the large contingent of his 'flying circus' (derisive term used for his squadron), one of the Canadians, Lt. Wilfred May, had been trying to handle the numbers of German planes attacking. He notes (p.86, Carisella) that the best thing he could do was 'spray as many as he could' as he was in a tight turn, then as he admitted, through 'lack of experience' held held ONE of his guns open too long and it jammed, the the other and he could not clear them.

The Red Baron, in the process of chasing this pilot for yet another 'kill' (to add to his 80 victories), while on his tail, ironically he ran into same issues with his Spandau's. After what seems to have been perhaps a similar error after long bursts, one of his Spandau's stopped firing with a broken firing pin (this would have been 695-1725 in previously posted image)...THEN it appeared that the other gun developed a #3 stoppage *

By this time he was low, and as he pounded on his Spandau' s in frustration he was still chasing May, while ground fire was unleashed on him by several Australian units.
It seems ironic that BOTH the hunter and the hunted had jammed guns" in this futile game.

It was the 'golden BB' from the ground fire that killed the Red Baron, not the brief attack by Roy Brown in his Sopwith Camel just prior to this as Brown tried to get the Baron off May. Brown had thought the burst he loosed on him had finished him, and did not continue his attack.

* the term #3 stoppage is from details in the training manuals of the time fir machine gun use, having to do with the position of the cocking lever at the time of stoppage.
#1 is handle forward, #2 slightly to rear and #3 handle behind trigger.

There seems to be variation in these as with Vickers gun, #3 is a feed fault
"The Vickers Machine Gun: Pride of the Emma Gees" D. Goldsmith, 2020.

The other listings are noted as from "SS 448 Method of Instruction in the Lewis Gun" General staff, May 1917.

In other notes it seems that a Lewis after firing slowly for about 4 rounds stopped with a #1 and a Vickers with a #3.

I wondered if perhaps the dual guns that became common on German planes by 1916 were for the cases where a gun jammed, the other still fired.

There were also the issues with belts and spent cartridges,
Apparently the belts typically used were Parabellum MG14 for lighter weight.
Also belts seem to have characteristic differences..... what if incorrect belt used?

After cartridge fired the belt was fed into a side chute off the breech block which would guide the belt into a storage compartment to prevent the belts from interfering with aircraft control mechanisms.
Belts held 500 rounds typically.
Expended cartridges were expended through a round hole on the receiver just under the barrel in Spandaus, and guided out of the aircraft. It seems many pilots had hopper like chutes added to direct the cases out and downward.

I do hope that these details readers here might find interesting, and as I have explained, I have no particular expertise in any of this, so I would welcome any corrections or additions.

Jim McDougall · 17th February 2025, 04:18 PM

Here is the ground version of the LMG 08, the MAXIM gun, called the "Devils Paintbrush" for its deadly sweep of carnage in battle.

As has been well noted, the "SPANDAU" term only applied to the IMG08 guns for aviation use and with the perforated surround which provided the air cooling of the barrel.
The same machine gun for use by ground forces were known as their proper classification, the Maxim gun (as well noted by Wayne in post #34).
However, as often the case in common usage in such eponyms, the term Spandau became in military vernacular collectively used for German machine guns.
The Spandau for aviation use was the ONLY form produced in Spandau.
Interestingly , the term 'Spandau ballet' was a term not devised until post WWII and referring to the suicide of Rudolph Hess who had been held prisoner there (by then a prison) by hanging.

kahnjar1 · 17th February 2025, 08:18 PM

This museum created by Sir Peter Jackson of Lord of the Rings fame contains his personal collection of WW1 aircraft, and life size dioramas of amongst other things the crashed Fokker Triplane of the Red Baron. If you are ever in NZ don't miss this. There is also a WW2 section.

Stu

Jim McDougall · 17th February 2025, 09:52 PM

OMG STU!!!
THIS IS INCREDIBLE!!!

There is nothing like this here or anywhere Ive ever heard of.
That scene of the crash site is breathtaking and as far as I can see 100% accurate.
I hope I can find the disposition of the relics associated with this event, there was total souvenir taking, leaving just the bare frame of the DRI left to rust. It seems remarkable they didnt part that out as well.

The guns are anybodys guess, it seems they would have turned up over a century later. Usually these things are secreted away in private collections and when the estate is disposed of, if not properly catalogued, off into never never land.

I cannot believe the stuff you guys have down there. !!!

kahnjar1 · 17th February 2025, 11:44 PM

I could post more pics of this Museum but I think I have stretched my luck far enough! Just one more though showing the destruction of the Triplane from a different angle. The dioramas by the way, were largely put together by WETA WORKSHOPS who were heavily involved with the Lord of the Rings movies and others such as AVATAR.
Stu

17th February 2025, 04:18 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	The Devils Paintbrush-the MAXIM gun Here is the ground version of the LMG 08, the MAXIM gun, called the "Devils Paintbrush" for its deadly sweep of carnage in battle. As has been well noted, the "SPANDAU" term only applied to the IMG08 guns for aviation use and with the perforated surround which provided the air cooling of the barrel. The same machine gun for use by ground forces were known as their proper classification, the Maxim gun (as well noted by Wayne in post #34). However, as often the case in common usage in such eponyms, the term Spandau became in military vernacular collectively used for German machine guns. The Spandau for aviation use was the ONLY form produced in Spandau. Interestingly , the term 'Spandau ballet' was a term not devised until post WWII and referring to the suicide of Rudolph Hess who had been held prisoner there (by then a prison) by hanging. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 18th February 2025 at 01:00 AM. Reason: proper recognition for post bt Kronckew

17th February 2025, 08:18 PM	#5
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,789	FOR THE WW1 AVIATION FANS Omaka Aviation Museum Blenheim NZ This museum created by Sir Peter Jackson of Lord of the Rings fame contains his personal collection of WW1 aircraft, and life size dioramas of amongst other things the crashed Fokker Triplane of the Red Baron. If you are ever in NZ don't miss this. There is also a WW2 section. Stu Attached Images

17th February 2025, 11:44 PM	#7
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,789	I could post more pics of this Museum but I think I have stretched my luck far enough! Just one more though showing the destruction of the Triplane from a different angle. The dioramas by the way, were largely put together by WETA WORKSHOPS who were heavily involved with the Lord of the Rings movies and others such as AVATAR. Stu Attached Images

17th February 2025, 01:48 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Other aviation machine guns of allies WWI fighters Here is a selection of some of the other aviation machine guns from various other plane types in combat vs. the German fighters & Spandaus. I am uncertain how many of these were there along with other Maxims and regular ground machine guns, but many! Attached Images

17th February 2025, 01:53 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	The huge model WWI fighter There was one large scale WWI fighter plane hanging from the ceiling, not sure what type it was but the engine front resembles those on DH-4, but those were two seat. Sure dwarfs my 1/72 scale 'air force' ! Attached Images

17th February 2025, 04:03 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Dynamics concerning operation of the guns As admittedly a novice with firearms in general, I have looked further into some aspects regarding these WWI machine guns and elements of their use and issues. It would seem that an obvious issue would be the likely jamming of the gun, as this sort of issue in the air would have been hard to resolve while the pilot was trying to control his plane and experiencing the dynamics of combat at hand. In previous post I noted that the Red Baron's guns were jammed at the time he was killed as flying low to ground after altercation with Canadian pilots flying Sopwith Camels. Looking further, the plot thickens: Apparently in the outset of the rather more intense dogfight he had been involved in with the large contingent of his 'flying circus' (derisive term used for his squadron), one of the Canadians, Lt. Wilfred May, had been trying to handle the numbers of German planes attacking. He notes (p.86, Carisella) that the best thing he could do was 'spray as many as he could' as he was in a tight turn, then as he admitted, through 'lack of experience' held held ONE of his guns open too long and it jammed, the the other and he could not clear them. The Red Baron, in the process of chasing this pilot for yet another 'kill' (to add to his 80 victories), while on his tail, ironically he ran into same issues with his Spandau's. After what seems to have been perhaps a similar error after long bursts, one of his Spandau's stopped firing with a broken firing pin (this would have been 695-1725 in previously posted image)...THEN it appeared that the other gun developed a #3 stoppage * By this time he was low, and as he pounded on his Spandau' s in frustration he was still chasing May, while ground fire was unleashed on him by several Australian units. It seems ironic that BOTH the hunter and the hunted had jammed guns" in this futile game. It was the 'golden BB' from the ground fire that killed the Red Baron, not the brief attack by Roy Brown in his Sopwith Camel just prior to this as Brown tried to get the Baron off May. Brown had thought the burst he loosed on him had finished him, and did not continue his attack. * the term #3 stoppage is from details in the training manuals of the time fir machine gun use, having to do with the position of the cocking lever at the time of stoppage. #1 is handle forward, #2 slightly to rear and #3 handle behind trigger. There seems to be variation in these as with Vickers gun, #3 is a feed fault "The Vickers Machine Gun: Pride of the Emma Gees" D. Goldsmith, 2020. The other listings are noted as from "SS 448 Method of Instruction in the Lewis Gun" General staff, May 1917. In other notes it seems that a Lewis after firing slowly for about 4 rounds stopped with a #1 and a Vickers with a #3. I wondered if perhaps the dual guns that became common on German planes by 1916 were for the cases where a gun jammed, the other still fired. There were also the issues with belts and spent cartridges, Apparently the belts typically used were Parabellum MG14 for lighter weight. Also belts seem to have characteristic differences..... what if incorrect belt used? After cartridge fired the belt was fed into a side chute off the breech block which would guide the belt into a storage compartment to prevent the belts from interfering with aircraft control mechanisms. Belts held 500 rounds typically. Expended cartridges were expended through a round hole on the receiver just under the barrel in Spandaus, and guided out of the aircraft. It seems many pilots had hopper like chutes added to direct the cases out and downward. I do hope that these details readers here might find interesting, and as I have explained, I have no particular expertise in any of this, so I would welcome any corrections or additions.

17th February 2025, 09:52 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	OMG STU!!! THIS IS INCREDIBLE!!! There is nothing like this here or anywhere Ive ever heard of. That scene of the crash site is breathtaking and as far as I can see 100% accurate. I hope I can find the disposition of the relics associated with this event, there was total souvenir taking, leaving just the bare frame of the DRI left to rust. It seems remarkable they didnt part that out as well. The guns are anybodys guess, it seems they would have turned up over a century later. Usually these things are secreted away in private collections and when the estate is disposed of, if not properly catalogued, off into never never land. I cannot believe the stuff you guys have down there. !!!