Captain Kidds Treasure 'silver' (?) ingot

Jim McDougall · 13th February 2025, 03:52 PM

Thanks so much for the input Rick, I always appreciate your insights here in these maritime subjects as I know your hands on awareness on these things and being situated in these New England areas.

Very well noted point on these vessels being burned for iron fittings etc. basically they were being scrapped but with key components being removed for maintenance on other vessels. In some of the reading I have found that often the saving of components went as far as masts etc.

I think these dynamics are an interesting aspect that applies to maritime archaeology as well as our understanding of the history of piracy and privateers. With pirates it seems that as vessels changed hands, they were often (perhaps more often than not) renamed, thus records and accounts of vessels by name might be hard to follow. This seems apparent as historic records of vessels often reflect ships of the same name, so then sometimes period and context come into play.

Thanks as well for this great illustration! As noted it sure gives interesting context. It seems Kidd was one of the most unfortunate individuals in the web of 'piracy' as he was entirely scapegoated to hide high end complicency in privateering scheme gone bad. Kidd was having crew trouble constantly and the 'bucket' incident was purely an accident in a heated moment and not evidence of maltreatment or despotism toward the crews.
They were against Kidd ironically because of his resistance to resort to piracy.

Actually the taking of the Quedah Merchant, the vessel that brought his prosecution for piracy, was done only after Kidd saw that it was under FRENCH passes. This then was in compliance with his letter of marque permitting his taking of French prizes.
Those documents were conveniently 'lost' until discovered in 1911 !

Thank you again Rick, its good having you with me on this thread.

all the best
Jim

David R · 19th February 2025, 12:35 AM

Seems appropriate for here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McJBDjtZ8iQ

Rick · 19th February 2025, 07:25 PM

I'm with you, Jim.

I'm about 3 miles as the crow flies from the wreck site; it lies offshore about where the Marconi Station was located. During my misspent youth my friends and I most likely unknowingly surfed over the wreck site.
I remember when you could legally drive the beach from Eastham to Provincetown. During one of those rides we came across a large orange fender that had washed off from the wreck site.
Of course, we brought it home with us and it lived the rest of its life out back of my shed. Whydah was painted on the surface of the ball in large letters.
I'd recommend anyone with an interest in the Whydah or the salvage efforts to visit the museum if they're ever on Cape Cod.

A good book about henry Morgan and Port royal.

Empire of Blue Water: Captain Morgan's Great Pirate Army, the Epic Battle for the Americas, and the Catastrophe that Ended the Outlaws' Bloody Reign

You pirate aficionados should enjoy the book listed above.

Jim McDougall · 19th February 2025, 10:30 PM

Thank you Rick! Man, it must have been incredible growing up in that environment! and living there. While I was of course enthralled with pirate movies, treasure island etc. as a kid, the closest I got to anything was 'pirates of the Caribbean' at Disneyland!

The world you live in there is steeped in adventure and maritime lore, the stuff most of us only find in books and movies.
I dont know what an orange fender is as described, but it sound like a cool thing to have with Whydah association.

I hope one day to get to see that museum, and the Queen Annes Revenge, but kinda running outa time

who knows?

Thanks for the tip on the book, I'll add to my armchair library!

David, thanks for the video, pretty impressive images and tune!

Jim McDougall · 22nd February 2025, 02:22 AM

Just thinking in terms if ballast, in the case of this curiously marked lead ingot, and studying the various forms of lead ingots used as ballast in vessels of these times, there were indeed various heavy materials used as ballast.

In many cases it seems that often the ballast had to of course be dumped or removed in order to load cargo, if that be the case. With pirate or privateer vessels perhaps that would not be considered, as they were not particularly involved in trade, though obviously commodities were typically their prize for sale.

In the case of this ingot, we would consider perhaps a vessel dumping ballast for whatever reason.....but if that be the case....where is the rest?
So in addition to the suspicious markings on this example, even more telling is that it is a single bar.

This was hardly indicative of treasure trove, nor of Captain Kidds, nor his Adventure Galley ....not even a ship wreck period.

Often shipwrecks are located because of the pronounced metal target in sonar with the iron cannon which are typically part of the wreckage. Often vessels long lost are located by the finding of cannon.

However in some cases, location of cannon might suggest a wreck site, but often heavy objects and materials have been used as ballast. Old cannon, armor etc. in many cases have served as such. I wonder if these might have been tossed over to lighten load for any reason.

In the case of five cannon found off the coast of Calif. at Goleta(near Santa Barbara) these were revealed on beach when storms cleared sands. There was not however any sign of a shipwreck. It was later found that a ship had foundered in this location in 1830, but was not wrecked and later it was removed and sold. The bill of sale indicated there were 5 cannon, however obviously these had been thrown off to reduce weight ? in moving the vessel out of its grounded situation.

Meanwhile, during the excited investigation of the guns, all manner of hyperbole evolved, up to claiming these were guns from Sir Francis Drakes ship in the 16th century PROVING he had indeed been there!
Later it was found these were 18th century, but indeed from a vessel of around 1830 by testing of hemp residue on several of them.

Just another example of these premature and fantastic announcements on archaeological finds.

David R · 23rd February 2025, 12:15 AM

Re lead silver ingots, a Roman example was found in the UK all marked up as silver, but analysis proved it to be mainly lead. Roman era fraud. Became the central plot device in The Silver Pigs a 1989 historical mystery crime novel by English author Lindsey Davis.

Jim McDougall · 23rd February 2025, 08:57 PM

Thanks David!
Interesting analogy, and like piracy, devious plots and shifty characters nothing new and have been around as long as humanity in effect.
That novel sounds intriguing, 'pigs' were of course the lead ballast ingots, as called in their time of use in the age of sail.

19th February 2025, 12:35 AM	#2
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,114	The last of Barrett's Privateers. Seems appropriate for here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McJBDjtZ8iQ

19th February 2025, 07:25 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I'm with you, Jim. I'm about 3 miles as the crow flies from the wreck site; it lies offshore about where the Marconi Station was located. During my misspent youth my friends and I most likely unknowingly surfed over the wreck site. I remember when you could legally drive the beach from Eastham to Provincetown. During one of those rides we came across a large orange fender that had washed off from the wreck site. Of course, we brought it home with us and it lived the rest of its life out back of my shed. Whydah was painted on the surface of the ball in large letters. I'd recommend anyone with an interest in the Whydah or the salvage efforts to visit the museum if they're ever on Cape Cod. A good book about henry Morgan and Port royal. Empire of Blue Water: Captain Morgan's Great Pirate Army, the Epic Battle for the Americas, and the Catastrophe that Ended the Outlaws' Bloody Reign You pirate aficionados should enjoy the book listed above. Last edited by Rick; 19th February 2025 at 07:47 PM.

13th February 2025, 03:52 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,188	Thanks so much for the input Rick, I always appreciate your insights here in these maritime subjects as I know your hands on awareness on these things and being situated in these New England areas. Very well noted point on these vessels being burned for iron fittings etc. basically they were being scrapped but with key components being removed for maintenance on other vessels. In some of the reading I have found that often the saving of components went as far as masts etc. I think these dynamics are an interesting aspect that applies to maritime archaeology as well as our understanding of the history of piracy and privateers. With pirates it seems that as vessels changed hands, they were often (perhaps more often than not) renamed, thus records and accounts of vessels by name might be hard to follow. This seems apparent as historic records of vessels often reflect ships of the same name, so then sometimes period and context come into play. Thanks as well for this great illustration! As noted it sure gives interesting context. It seems Kidd was one of the most unfortunate individuals in the web of 'piracy' as he was entirely scapegoated to hide high end complicency in privateering scheme gone bad. Kidd was having crew trouble constantly and the 'bucket' incident was purely an accident in a heated moment and not evidence of maltreatment or despotism toward the crews. They were against Kidd ironically because of his resistance to resort to piracy. Actually the taking of the Quedah Merchant, the vessel that brought his prosecution for piracy, was done only after Kidd saw that it was under FRENCH passes. This then was in compliance with his letter of marque permitting his taking of French prizes. Those documents were conveniently 'lost' until discovered in 1911 ! Thank you again Rick, its good having you with me on this thread. all the best Jim

19th February 2025, 10:30 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,188	Thank you Rick! Man, it must have been incredible growing up in that environment! and living there. While I was of course enthralled with pirate movies, treasure island etc. as a kid, the closest I got to anything was 'pirates of the Caribbean' at Disneyland! The world you live in there is steeped in adventure and maritime lore, the stuff most of us only find in books and movies. I dont know what an orange fender is as described, but it sound like a cool thing to have with Whydah association. I hope one day to get to see that museum, and the Queen Annes Revenge, but kinda running outa time who knows? Thanks for the tip on the book, I'll add to my armchair library! David, thanks for the video, pretty impressive images and tune!

22nd February 2025, 02:22 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,188	Just thinking in terms if ballast, in the case of this curiously marked lead ingot, and studying the various forms of lead ingots used as ballast in vessels of these times, there were indeed various heavy materials used as ballast. In many cases it seems that often the ballast had to of course be dumped or removed in order to load cargo, if that be the case. With pirate or privateer vessels perhaps that would not be considered, as they were not particularly involved in trade, though obviously commodities were typically their prize for sale. In the case of this ingot, we would consider perhaps a vessel dumping ballast for whatever reason.....but if that be the case....where is the rest? So in addition to the suspicious markings on this example, even more telling is that it is a single bar. This was hardly indicative of treasure trove, nor of Captain Kidds, nor his Adventure Galley ....not even a ship wreck period. Often shipwrecks are located because of the pronounced metal target in sonar with the iron cannon which are typically part of the wreckage. Often vessels long lost are located by the finding of cannon. However in some cases, location of cannon might suggest a wreck site, but often heavy objects and materials have been used as ballast. Old cannon, armor etc. in many cases have served as such. I wonder if these might have been tossed over to lighten load for any reason. In the case of five cannon found off the coast of Calif. at Goleta(near Santa Barbara) these were revealed on beach when storms cleared sands. There was not however any sign of a shipwreck. It was later found that a ship had foundered in this location in 1830, but was not wrecked and later it was removed and sold. The bill of sale indicated there were 5 cannon, however obviously these had been thrown off to reduce weight ? in moving the vessel out of its grounded situation. Meanwhile, during the excited investigation of the guns, all manner of hyperbole evolved, up to claiming these were guns from Sir Francis Drakes ship in the 16th century PROVING he had indeed been there! Later it was found these were 18th century, but indeed from a vessel of around 1830 by testing of hemp residue on several of them. Just another example of these premature and fantastic announcements on archaeological finds.

23rd February 2025, 12:15 AM	#6
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,114	Re lead silver ingots, a Roman example was found in the UK all marked up as silver, but analysis proved it to be mainly lead. Roman era fraud. Became the central plot device in The Silver Pigs a 1989 historical mystery crime novel by English author Lindsey Davis.

23rd February 2025, 08:57 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,188	Thanks David! Interesting analogy, and like piracy, devious plots and shifty characters nothing new and have been around as long as humanity in effect. That novel sounds intriguing, 'pigs' were of course the lead ballast ingots, as called in their time of use in the age of sail.