SPANDAU BALLET

[kahnjar1]

https://www.google.com/search?q=euro...client=gws-wiz

So acording to this, Germans are Ethnic, so the Spandau is an Ethnic weapon??

[Jim McDougall]

LOL! I wondered how long until these things came up.
I was a bit hesitant to post this because of the inherent aviation inclusion and obviously post 1900, so had become more inclined to post these kinds of military things in MISC.
As there is no European misc. nor American etc. I had been trying to post items outside the 1900 demarcation here to avoid issues. This had come up with things like my 1913 Patton sword etc. .

I suppose maybe it would good idea to make the forum title here either misc. or both European & ethnographic misc.?

In any case, its a fun topic, and I guess in my ancient age things nostalgic are keenly in mind, so I am grateful for the responses here, latitude and fun.
Wayne, amazing info, especially that these are still used!!! Incredible.
Stu, again thanks for all the amazing photos of these planes, what fun it would be to see them fly!

Time to get the "Flyboys" movie again !!!

[gp]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

https://www.google.com/search?q=euro...client=gws-wiz

So acording to this, Germans are Ethnic, so the Spandau is an Ethnic weapon??

Spandau used to be a district in Germany and since 1920 part of Berlin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spandau

During the Prussian imperial days they used to have a factory there:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spandau_Arsenal

[kahnjar1]

This section of the Forum has always included non weapons and as Jim says above, maybe a renaming of this section would be of help, and non weapons to be included even if they are not necessarily "Ethnic". The European Armoury section often includes relatively modern weapons without any negative comment, so why is this section limited? It would be fair to say that most items posted in any of our sections are mostly true Ethnic (native) and could also be fairly described as "Antique", but there are also those which perhaps do not fall accurately into either category. Examples would be native jewellery and other accessary items such as native headwear/helmets etc.
Those of us who collect, generally have other items which they seek comment or information on,..... items which do not fall exactly into the categorys offered
This Forum is very informative and maybe a further section could be added to cover the above.
The knowledge held by present Members is absolute gold, and should be shared openly with those who come after us. As we know there has been untold information lost for ever when the older Members pass.
Perhaps the Moderators could look at this.
Stu

[Jim McDougall]

Extremely well said Stu!
These forums are all about exchanging valuable information and friendly discussion, and sometimes things are not necessarily categoric. In most cases topics which in some degree exceed defined limitations, the patience and courtesy of the members here make allowances and keep things on track. I think that should prevail, and not require more regulation necessarily.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

This section of the Forum has always included non weapons and as Jim says above, maybe a renaming of this section would be of help, and non weapons to be included even if they are not necessarily "Ethnic". The European Armoury section often includes relatively modern weapons without any negative comment, so why is this section limited? It would be fair to say that most items posted in any of our sections are mostly true Ethnic (native) and could also be fairly described as "Antique", but there are also those which perhaps do not fall accurately into either category. Examples would be native jewellery and other accessary items such as native headwear/helmets etc.
Those of us who collect, generally have other items which they seek comment or information on,..... items which do not fall exactly into the categorys offered
This Forum is very informative and maybe a further section could be added to cover the above.
The knowledge held by present Members is absolute gold, and should be shared openly with those who come after us. As we know there has been untold information lost for ever when the older Members pass.
Perhaps the Moderators could look at this.
Stu

As an afterthought perhaps the Moderators would consider dropping off the word "Ethnographic" and simply call the section "Miscellania" which would solve the issue?
Stu

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

As an afterthought perhaps the Moderators would consider dropping off the word "Ethnographic" and simply call the section "Miscellania" which would solve the issue?
Stu

BINGO!!!! and we continue

[kahnjar1]

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

What I mean is that is the exact solution!
Actually I never noticed the forum title specified ethnographic! bonk!

[David]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

This section of the Forum has always included non weapons and as Jim says above, maybe a renaming of this section would be of help, and non weapons to be included even if they are not necessarily "Ethnic". The European Armoury section often includes relatively modern weapons without any negative comment, so why is this section limited? It would be fair to say that most items posted in any of our sections are mostly true Ethnic (native) and could also be fairly described as "Antique", but there are also those which perhaps do not fall accurately into either category. Examples would be native jewellery and other accessary items such as native headwear/helmets etc.
Those of us who collect, generally have other items which they seek comment or information on,..... items which do not fall exactly into the categorys offered
This Forum is very informative and maybe a further section could be added to cover the above.
The knowledge held by present Members is absolute gold, and should be shared openly with those who come after us. As we know there has been untold information lost for ever when the older Members pass.
Perhaps the Moderators could look at this.
Stu

Stu, i wasn't making a negative comment, simply pointing out that a military machine gun is not an ethnographic weapon. No one is limiting you on what is being discussed here and no one but you have brought up the question of forum "rules". If it was my intention to suggest this discussion should be shut down i would have clearly said so in very clear language. There is also a huge difference in the meaning of "ethnic" vs "ethnographic" and Ethnographic is the category that this forum is dedicated to. Still, this is the Miscellaneous Forum so there is certainly room for discuss on items beyond our usual purview. But purely for discussion's sake let's be real here. Simply because a weapon has been made in a country that has a unique ethnicity does not mean that the weapon in question displays that unique ethnicity in it's design or function. There is nothing in the design of the Spandau machine gun that speaks specifically to German culture.
As for those who collect military weapons and memorabilia, there are tons of forums out there dedicated to such discussions. I don't think we are at risk of seeing information on such weapons being lost at any point in the immediate future.
But please, carry on. As i clearly pointed out before, WWI air warfare has always been a personal interest of mine and i am enjoy this thread, especially all the images of the aircraft you posted.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by David

Stu, i wasn't making a negative comment, simply pointing out that a military machine gun is not an ethnographic weapon. No one is limiting you on what is being discussed here and no one but you have brought up the question of forum "rules". If it was my intention to suggest this discussion should be shut down i would have clearly said so in very clear language. There is also a huge difference in the meaning of "ethnic" vs "ethnographic" and Ethnographic is the category that this forum is dedicated to. Still, this is the Miscellaneous Forum so there is certainly room for discuss on items beyond our usual purview. But purely for discussion's sake let's be real here. Simply because a weapon has been made in a country that has a unique ethnicity does not mean that the weapon in question displays that unique ethnicity in it's design or function. There is nothing in the design of the Spandau machine gun that speaks specifically to German culture.
As for those who collect military weapons and memorabilia, there are tons of forums out there dedicated to such discussions. I don't think we are at risk of seeing information on such weapons being lost at any point in the immediate future.
But please, carry on. As i clearly pointed out before, WWI air warfare has always been a personal interest of mine and i am enjoy this thread, especially all the images of the aircraft you posted.

Thank you David. I am not in the business of trying to stir up trouble or argue the views of the Moderators, but simply trying to point out that IMHO the Miscellaneous section conveys to me that it is just that...Miscellaneous. I am perhaps afraid that as our older Member pass (I am about to turn 81) large amounts of knowledge for those who follow us will be lost. Maybe the Moderators would seriously consider either changing the title of this section, or as an alternative add a further category which would allow discussion of more recently (but still ANTIQUE) items to be openly discussed.
I accept that the title of the Website is "Ethnographic" and not "Ethnic" and there are other sites which deal in what I would call modern weapons, but I would like to think that items produced up to the late 19th century could perhaps be included here. Some are already, in the European Armoury section such as military swords so where does one draw the line?
I respect the Rules as they exist, but wonder if perhaps with the passing of time that they maybe could be revisited to possibly include a wider range of items accepted for discussion.
Stu

[David]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Thank you David. I am not in the business of trying to stir up trouble or argue the views of the Moderators, but simply trying to point out that IMHO the Miscellaneous section conveys to me that it is just that...Miscellaneous. I am perhaps afraid that as our older Member pass (I am about to turn 81) large amounts of knowledge for those who follow us will be lost. Maybe the Moderators would seriously consider either changing the title of this section, or as an alternative add a further category which would allow discussion of more recently (but still ANTIQUE) items to be openly discussed.
I accept that the title of the Website is "Ethnographic" and not "Ethnic" and there are other sites which deal in what I would call modern weapons, but I would like to think that items produced up to the late 19th century could perhaps be included here. Some are already, in the European Armoury section such as military swords so where does one draw the line?
I respect the Rules as they exist, but wonder if perhaps with the passing of time that they maybe could be revisited to possibly include a wider range of items accepted for discussion.
Stu

Hi Stu. I believe you are operating under a misconception. AFAIK, the word "antique" doesn't appear anywhere in the forum titles or the general rules about posting. Not only are items produced in the late 19th century quite often included on our forums, but on the Keris Forum at least, we frequently discuss 20th and 21st century keris, even ones made just yesterday. So there is no line there at all. Ethnographic has nothing to do with the age of the weapon. They are simply weapons that are specific to a particular culture that reflect the values, craft and design that are a unique part of those cultures. And for the most part they are not factory made items such as modern military weaponry.
Now again, i am not stating this to squash the current discussion here. Please continue as it seems you and others (and even myself in some aspects) are enjoying this threads and it does appear in the Miscellaneous Section after all. However, i see no reason to drop the "Ethnographic" from the name of this particular forum as we are indeed a website dedicated specifically to ethnographic weapons and armour. As i mentioned before, there are tons of sites out there that focus on modern Military weaponry, bith very specifically and generally that are doing a great job preserving the knowledge of WWI and WWII guns and aircraft. That simply is not the focus of this website. And just as you mention the passing of members and your own age, we moderators are just as antique as some of the weapons we post. As i'm sure you know we just lost one of our beloved team and are understaffed as it is. So expanding and adding new categories outside of the scope of Ethnographic Weapons is not really feasible or practical. Asking a forum that is focussed on Ethnographic Weapons to open up a new forum for people to discuss manufactured military machine guns is like asking a forum for Folk Music to add a section to discuss Prog Rock. There is a place for everything.
I would ask at this point that if you wish to continue discussing this further that you make a PM directly to members of the Moderation Team rather than continuing it here. Forum policy is not to be discussed in the open forums. Thanks!

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by David

Hi Stu. I believe you are operating under a misconception. AFAIK, the word "antique" doesn't appear anywhere in the forum titles or the general rules about posting. Not only are items produced in the late 19th century quite often included on our forums, but on the Keris Forum at least, we frequently discuss 20th and 21st century keris, even ones made just yesterday. So there is no line there at all. Ethnographic has nothing to do with the age of the weapon. They are simply weapons that are specific to a particular culture that reflect the values, craft and design that are a unique part of those cultures. And for the most part they are not factory made items such as modern military weaponry.
Now again, i am not stating this to squash the current discussion here. Please continue as it seems you and others (and even myself in some aspects) are enjoying this threads and it does appear in the Miscellaneous Section after all. However, i see no reason to drop the "Ethnographic" from the name of this particular forum as we are indeed a website dedicated specifically to ethnographic weapons and armour. As i mentioned before, there are tons of sites out there that focus on modern Military weaponry, bith very specifically and generally that are doing a great job preserving the knowledge of WWI and WWII guns and aircraft. That simply is not the focus of this website. And just as you mention the passing of members and your own age, we moderators are just as antique as some of the weapons we post. As i'm sure you know we just lost one of our beloved team and are understaffed as it is. So expanding and adding new categories outside of the scope of Ethnographic Weapons is not really feasible or practical. Asking a forum that is focussed on Ethnographic Weapons to open up a new forum for people to discuss manufactured military machine guns is like asking a forum for Folk Music to add a section to discuss Prog Rock. There is a place for everything.
I would ask at this point that if you wish to continue discussing this further that you make a PM directly to members of the Moderation Team rather than continuing it here. Forum policy is not to be discussed in the open forums. Thanks!

Thank you David for your patience regarding the above discussions.
I would just like to clarify, and seek clarification on the following two points before I close my ramblings.
I use, and have always used the term ANTIQUE, purely to describe items either over 100 years old or made before 1900. There was no intention on my part to suggest that this Forum dealt in Antiques as such, or changed anything in the Rules to include the word Antique.
In one of the replies above it was stated that a Spandau was not an Ethnographic item as it was factory produced, so how can a German/Austrian/English/French sword or other items which are also factory produced, and discussed in the European Armoury, be described as Ethnographic?
I leave you with these thoughts and thank you for your tolerance.
Stu

[Rick]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

https://www.google.com/search?q=euro...client=gws-wiz

So acording to this, Germans are Ethnic, so the Spandau is an Ethnic weapon??

Speaking of ethnicity.
This cartoon of Europe must be from the WW1 era.

[werecow]

The subscript reads: "The mad house (old song, new tune)"

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Rick

Speaking of ethnicity.
This cartoon of Europe must be from the WW1 era.

Someone from another unrelated forum I frequent found the following description online:

This fascinating propaganda map was created by Louis Raemaekers, a famous Dutch cartoonist, at the beginning of World War I. Early in the war Raemaekers crossed the border into Belgium to witness first-hand the brutality of the advancing Germans. Despite Holland's neutrality, the atrocities Raemaekers witnessed compelled him to create anti-German cartoons. The cartoons depicted such harsh critiques of the Germans, that Germany demanded that Holland put Raemaekers on trial for compromising Dutch neutrality, and even put a bounty of 12,000 Guilders for his capture, dead or alive. Raemaekers was acquitted and fled to London to continue his work. During the war he created hundreds of political cartoons, which were distributed on posters, postcards, brochures, and in newspapers and magazines. The dissemination of his work is considered one of the most extensive propaganda activities of World War I.

The title of this map translates roughly as: "The Insane Asylum (Old Song, New Tune)" referring to Holland's perspective of the war waging around them. Although Holland is depicted sitting peacefully, smoking a pipe, he is holding a gun and keeps an ever-watchful eye on his neighbor. In contrast, Portugal and Spain are embroiled in their own affairs, ignoring the unrest around them. France and Germany are engaged in a fist-fight, while the British Isles are depicted as a strong, fierce Highlander. Italy and a giant Russia appear to be playing tug-of-war with the Austro-Hungarian Empire. After declaring itself neutral at the onset of the war, the Ottoman Empire accepted military support from Germany, causing the Allies to declare war on the Ottoman Empire. The situation caused disorder within the Empire, which is cleverly depicted here with a Turk cutting his own throat with a sword stamped "Made in Germany." Each country is cleverly depicted as a human figure - all of which are male except for the gentle Norway and Sweden and the islands of Corsica and Sardinia. Published by Senefelder. Issued in brown paper wrappers.