Captain Kidds Treasure 'silver' (?) ingot

Jim McDougall · 4th February 2025, 04:51 PM

Getting back to the topic which is basically, DID Captain Kidd have a treasure in the first place, and why would the the ADVENTURE GALLEY have been a candidate for holding said treasure?

Despite the short lived excitement brought by Clifford's purported finding of the ADVENTURE GALLEY in the harbor at St.Marys in Madagascar, all current references note the remains have NOT been found, and no further rebuttal has been forthcoming toward that event, nor any further effort or interest in finding this wreck has seemed to exist.,

In looking into this ship itself, it was apparently launched at one of Englands largest shipyards, that of Captain Willam Castle at Deptford, outside London, in 1695. When Kidd was backed by the syndicate of investors, the governor and several high station individuals, the latter of marque was approved by King William III who also would gain a percentage....he acquired the vessel in 1696.

When he ventured forth into his 'pirate hunting' enterprise, presumably his goal was more toward confiscating the great riches they were acquiring from their conquests than to bring these pirates to justice. Having virtually zero success in finding, let alone taking any pirate prizes in the two years he plied the waters in the Indian Ocean and others, he finally inadvertently became 'pirate' himself. This was by taking two prizes, the ROUPARELLE (November) and the large Armenian vessel for India, the QUEDAGH MERCHANT off the Malabar Coast in 1698.
As typically the case, these 'treasure' aboard merchant ships was goods, not gold, silver and jewels (though obviously these were somewhat present as currency in trade).

So after TWO years of being at sea, the Adventure Galley had become a leaking and barely seaworthy vessel. Kidd decided to take it and the Rouparelle to St. Marys, and the larger Quedah Merchant was to become the vessel of use.
As far as known, the Adventure Galley was OFFLOADED and sunk somewhere off the NW coast of Madagascar, it never made it to St.Marys. It seems the Rouparelle renamed 'November' was scuttled at St. Marys, likely burned as several other vessels there.
The remaining vessel, the Quedah Merchant took Kidd to Hispaniola (now Dominican Republic), where eventually it was too sunk after Kidd purchased a sloop.
That wreck there has presumably been located.

Captain Kidd was never a very successful privateer, pirate hunter...and certainly not pirate. The few prizes he took were unlikely to have held any large quantities of 'treasure', though a degree of such proceeds were indeed secreted at Gardiners Island just prior to arrest, and was quickly retrieved after. The value was nominal, and Kidd tried to imply more treasure was to be found using it as a bargaining chip.

It was entirely a ploy, any treasure that existed would have been taken OFF his vessels BEFORE they were scuttled. None of these ships were 'LOST' unexpectedly. He had few prizes with evidence of huge riches, they held primarily goods which were sold off. Those proceeds were, as with most pirates, quickly spent, not buried.

So the key question here applies mostly to the subject of LEAD INGOTS used as ballast, and why would this example have EVER been mistaken (?) for silver?

Just some thoughts to reiterate the theme of the thread and discussion.

By this time (1698)

Jim McDougall · 13th February 2025, 02:05 AM

It seems the questions remainng are, A) was the Adventure Galley ACTUALLY scuttled in the harbor at St.Mary's in Madagascar as Barry Clifford tried to intimate with the huge ingot purported to be silver? and as it seems widely held by many references.
B) Did Kidd actually have treasure to bury? even if not in all the wildly suggested tales which led to the unusual 'industry' of 'money digging'. ?
While the vessels he did actually take were not over laden treasure ships, they did have aboard a certain amount of coin, typically gold it seems, with the bulk of the materials being certain commodities.
It does seem, in his struggles with crew anxious for booty, he did sell these materials and distribute proceeds among the crew.

We know Kidd DID have a certain amount of coin, both silver and gold which he still held in New York and before arrest, buried it on Gardiners Island. This small amount was not the hoards that LORE has buried in the various popularly held areas which have led to the legends and famed literature on pirate treasure.....from Irving, Poe to the quintessential "Treasure Island".

But getting back to his ship....the ADVENTURE GALLEY.....was it really dismantled and burned in St. Marys harbor? We know another of Kidd's ships captured was the Rouparelle (later named November) and that WAS dismantled and BURNED in the harbor in 1698. Perhaps this was what gave the notion the Adventure Galley was burned.

Whatever the case, when Kidd left St. Mary's it was in the Quedah Merchant, the Armenian ship he had captured off India, which had caused Kidds branding as pirate.

I found one theory, of course hypothetical, that Kidd had somehow realigned with former adversary Robert Culliford, who was in St. Marys with his vessel, Mocha. In arrangements with him, Kidd offered him the Adventure Galley, which was careened and repaired over weeks. From there it is thought that Culliford renamed it and sailed back to depredations in the Indian Ocean.
While Culliford was later captured, he was able to arrange clemency for testimony and released.
From there, no further record exists of him.

Clearly one key problem with vessels of these times, is that they often changed hands, whether through being refitted or sold, of course being captured by privateers or pirates ....it becomes hard to follow records to identify a ship with different name obviously.

So while this thread is of course focused on the mystery of this silver ingot found in St. Mary's harbor in Madagascar, and prematurely heralded as silver and EVIDENCE of finding Kidd's Adventure Galley.................the related mysteries of Captain Kidd so prevalent in pirate lore are worthy of inclusion here.

It seems there is strong interest in this subject matter, and I hope others reading might add material, observations and ideas here.
Pirate mysteries never get old!!

Rick · 13th February 2025, 06:17 AM

Decrepit ships were often burned for their iron in those times, especially if the location was as far flung as Madagascar was back then. This may contribute to the mystery about these vessels.

Now for an illustration of the good captain entertaining visitors aboard in New York before he fell on harder times. How could anyone as genteel as that kill a seaman with a bucket.

Jim McDougall · 13th February 2025, 03:52 PM

Thanks so much for the input Rick, I always appreciate your insights here in these maritime subjects as I know your hands on awareness on these things and being situated in these New England areas.

Very well noted point on these vessels being burned for iron fittings etc. basically they were being scrapped but with key components being removed for maintenance on other vessels. In some of the reading I have found that often the saving of components went as far as masts etc.

I think these dynamics are an interesting aspect that applies to maritime archaeology as well as our understanding of the history of piracy and privateers. With pirates it seems that as vessels changed hands, they were often (perhaps more often than not) renamed, thus records and accounts of vessels by name might be hard to follow. This seems apparent as historic records of vessels often reflect ships of the same name, so then sometimes period and context come into play.

Thanks as well for this great illustration! As noted it sure gives interesting context. It seems Kidd was one of the most unfortunate individuals in the web of 'piracy' as he was entirely scapegoated to hide high end complicency in privateering scheme gone bad. Kidd was having crew trouble constantly and the 'bucket' incident was purely an accident in a heated moment and not evidence of maltreatment or despotism toward the crews.
They were against Kidd ironically because of his resistance to resort to piracy.

Actually the taking of the Quedah Merchant, the vessel that brought his prosecution for piracy, was done only after Kidd saw that it was under FRENCH passes. This then was in compliance with his letter of marque permitting his taking of French prizes.
Those documents were conveniently 'lost' until discovered in 1911 !

Thank you again Rick, its good having you with me on this thread.

all the best
Jim

David R · 19th February 2025, 12:35 AM

Seems appropriate for here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McJBDjtZ8iQ

Rick · 19th February 2025, 07:25 PM

I'm with you, Jim.

I'm about 3 miles as the crow flies from the wreck site; it lies offshore about where the Marconi Station was located. During my misspent youth my friends and I most likely unknowingly surfed over the wreck site.
I remember when you could legally drive the beach from Eastham to Provincetown. During one of those rides we came across a large orange fender that had washed off from the wreck site.
Of course, we brought it home with us and it lived the rest of its life out back of my shed. Whydah was painted on the surface of the ball in large letters.
I'd recommend anyone with an interest in the Whydah or the salvage efforts to visit the museum if they're ever on Cape Cod.

A good book about henry Morgan and Port royal.

Empire of Blue Water: Captain Morgan's Great Pirate Army, the Epic Battle for the Americas, and the Catastrophe that Ended the Outlaws' Bloody Reign

You pirate aficionados should enjoy the book listed above.

Jim McDougall · 19th February 2025, 10:30 PM

Thank you Rick! Man, it must have been incredible growing up in that environment! and living there. While I was of course enthralled with pirate movies, treasure island etc. as a kid, the closest I got to anything was 'pirates of the Caribbean' at Disneyland!

The world you live in there is steeped in adventure and maritime lore, the stuff most of us only find in books and movies.
I dont know what an orange fender is as described, but it sound like a cool thing to have with Whydah association.

I hope one day to get to see that museum, and the Queen Annes Revenge, but kinda running outa time

who knows?

Thanks for the tip on the book, I'll add to my armchair library!

David, thanks for the video, pretty impressive images and tune!

13th February 2025, 02:05 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Researching further It seems the questions remainng are, A) was the Adventure Galley ACTUALLY scuttled in the harbor at St.Mary's in Madagascar as Barry Clifford tried to intimate with the huge ingot purported to be silver? and as it seems widely held by many references. B) Did Kidd actually have treasure to bury? even if not in all the wildly suggested tales which led to the unusual 'industry' of 'money digging'. ? While the vessels he did actually take were not over laden treasure ships, they did have aboard a certain amount of coin, typically gold it seems, with the bulk of the materials being certain commodities. It does seem, in his struggles with crew anxious for booty, he did sell these materials and distribute proceeds among the crew. We know Kidd DID have a certain amount of coin, both silver and gold which he still held in New York and before arrest, buried it on Gardiners Island. This small amount was not the hoards that LORE has buried in the various popularly held areas which have led to the legends and famed literature on pirate treasure.....from Irving, Poe to the quintessential "Treasure Island". But getting back to his ship....the ADVENTURE GALLEY.....was it really dismantled and burned in St. Marys harbor? We know another of Kidd's ships captured was the Rouparelle (later named November) and that WAS dismantled and BURNED in the harbor in 1698. Perhaps this was what gave the notion the Adventure Galley was burned. Whatever the case, when Kidd left St. Mary's it was in the Quedah Merchant, the Armenian ship he had captured off India, which had caused Kidds branding as pirate. I found one theory, of course hypothetical, that Kidd had somehow realigned with former adversary Robert Culliford, who was in St. Marys with his vessel, Mocha. In arrangements with him, Kidd offered him the Adventure Galley, which was careened and repaired over weeks. From there it is thought that Culliford renamed it and sailed back to depredations in the Indian Ocean. While Culliford was later captured, he was able to arrange clemency for testimony and released. From there, no further record exists of him. Clearly one key problem with vessels of these times, is that they often changed hands, whether through being refitted or sold, of course being captured by privateers or pirates ....it becomes hard to follow records to identify a ship with different name obviously. So while this thread is of course focused on the mystery of this silver ingot found in St. Mary's harbor in Madagascar, and prematurely heralded as silver and EVIDENCE of finding Kidd's Adventure Galley.................the related mysteries of Captain Kidd so prevalent in pirate lore are worthy of inclusion here. It seems there is strong interest in this subject matter, and I hope others reading might add material, observations and ideas here. Pirate mysteries never get old!!

13th February 2025, 06:17 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Decrepit ships were often burned for their iron in those times, especially if the location was as far flung as Madagascar was back then. This may contribute to the mystery about these vessels. Now for an illustration of the good captain entertaining visitors aboard in New York before he fell on harder times. How could anyone as genteel as that kill a seaman with a bucket. Attached Images

19th February 2025, 12:35 AM	#5
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,114	The last of Barrett's Privateers. Seems appropriate for here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McJBDjtZ8iQ

19th February 2025, 07:25 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I'm with you, Jim. I'm about 3 miles as the crow flies from the wreck site; it lies offshore about where the Marconi Station was located. During my misspent youth my friends and I most likely unknowingly surfed over the wreck site. I remember when you could legally drive the beach from Eastham to Provincetown. During one of those rides we came across a large orange fender that had washed off from the wreck site. Of course, we brought it home with us and it lived the rest of its life out back of my shed. Whydah was painted on the surface of the ball in large letters. I'd recommend anyone with an interest in the Whydah or the salvage efforts to visit the museum if they're ever on Cape Cod. A good book about henry Morgan and Port royal. Empire of Blue Water: Captain Morgan's Great Pirate Army, the Epic Battle for the Americas, and the Catastrophe that Ended the Outlaws' Bloody Reign You pirate aficionados should enjoy the book listed above. Last edited by Rick; 19th February 2025 at 07:47 PM.

4th February 2025, 04:51 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Getting back to the topic which is basically, DID Captain Kidd have a treasure in the first place, and why would the the ADVENTURE GALLEY have been a candidate for holding said treasure? Despite the short lived excitement brought by Clifford's purported finding of the ADVENTURE GALLEY in the harbor at St.Marys in Madagascar, all current references note the remains have NOT been found, and no further rebuttal has been forthcoming toward that event, nor any further effort or interest in finding this wreck has seemed to exist., In looking into this ship itself, it was apparently launched at one of Englands largest shipyards, that of Captain Willam Castle at Deptford, outside London, in 1695. When Kidd was backed by the syndicate of investors, the governor and several high station individuals, the latter of marque was approved by King William III who also would gain a percentage....he acquired the vessel in 1696. When he ventured forth into his 'pirate hunting' enterprise, presumably his goal was more toward confiscating the great riches they were acquiring from their conquests than to bring these pirates to justice. Having virtually zero success in finding, let alone taking any pirate prizes in the two years he plied the waters in the Indian Ocean and others, he finally inadvertently became 'pirate' himself. This was by taking two prizes, the ROUPARELLE (November) and the large Armenian vessel for India, the QUEDAGH MERCHANT off the Malabar Coast in 1698. As typically the case, these 'treasure' aboard merchant ships was goods, not gold, silver and jewels (though obviously these were somewhat present as currency in trade). So after TWO years of being at sea, the Adventure Galley had become a leaking and barely seaworthy vessel. Kidd decided to take it and the Rouparelle to St. Marys, and the larger Quedah Merchant was to become the vessel of use. As far as known, the Adventure Galley was OFFLOADED and sunk somewhere off the NW coast of Madagascar, it never made it to St.Marys. It seems the Rouparelle renamed 'November' was scuttled at St. Marys, likely burned as several other vessels there. The remaining vessel, the Quedah Merchant took Kidd to Hispaniola (now Dominican Republic), where eventually it was too sunk after Kidd purchased a sloop. That wreck there has presumably been located. Captain Kidd was never a very successful privateer, pirate hunter...and certainly not pirate. The few prizes he took were unlikely to have held any large quantities of 'treasure', though a degree of such proceeds were indeed secreted at Gardiners Island just prior to arrest, and was quickly retrieved after. The value was nominal, and Kidd tried to imply more treasure was to be found using it as a bargaining chip. It was entirely a ploy, any treasure that existed would have been taken OFF his vessels BEFORE they were scuttled. None of these ships were 'LOST' unexpectedly. He had few prizes with evidence of huge riches, they held primarily goods which were sold off. Those proceeds were, as with most pirates, quickly spent, not buried. So the key question here applies mostly to the subject of LEAD INGOTS used as ballast, and why would this example have EVER been mistaken (?) for silver? Just some thoughts to reiterate the theme of the thread and discussion. By this time (1698)

13th February 2025, 03:52 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Thanks so much for the input Rick, I always appreciate your insights here in these maritime subjects as I know your hands on awareness on these things and being situated in these New England areas. Very well noted point on these vessels being burned for iron fittings etc. basically they were being scrapped but with key components being removed for maintenance on other vessels. In some of the reading I have found that often the saving of components went as far as masts etc. I think these dynamics are an interesting aspect that applies to maritime archaeology as well as our understanding of the history of piracy and privateers. With pirates it seems that as vessels changed hands, they were often (perhaps more often than not) renamed, thus records and accounts of vessels by name might be hard to follow. This seems apparent as historic records of vessels often reflect ships of the same name, so then sometimes period and context come into play. Thanks as well for this great illustration! As noted it sure gives interesting context. It seems Kidd was one of the most unfortunate individuals in the web of 'piracy' as he was entirely scapegoated to hide high end complicency in privateering scheme gone bad. Kidd was having crew trouble constantly and the 'bucket' incident was purely an accident in a heated moment and not evidence of maltreatment or despotism toward the crews. They were against Kidd ironically because of his resistance to resort to piracy. Actually the taking of the Quedah Merchant, the vessel that brought his prosecution for piracy, was done only after Kidd saw that it was under FRENCH passes. This then was in compliance with his letter of marque permitting his taking of French prizes. Those documents were conveniently 'lost' until discovered in 1911 ! Thank you again Rick, its good having you with me on this thread. all the best Jim

19th February 2025, 10:30 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Thank you Rick! Man, it must have been incredible growing up in that environment! and living there. While I was of course enthralled with pirate movies, treasure island etc. as a kid, the closest I got to anything was 'pirates of the Caribbean' at Disneyland! The world you live in there is steeped in adventure and maritime lore, the stuff most of us only find in books and movies. I dont know what an orange fender is as described, but it sound like a cool thing to have with Whydah association. I hope one day to get to see that museum, and the Queen Annes Revenge, but kinda running outa time who knows? Thanks for the tip on the book, I'll add to my armchair library! David, thanks for the video, pretty impressive images and tune!