Takouba with a 16th century blade?

[Jim McDougall]

As Iain has well noted, this blade might tenuously be late 18th c. and really nothing that distinguishes it as European.
The descriptive term the dealer might have prudently used is 'of the style' of many 16th century and later blades. In the defense of many dealers, many of them actually believe this, some conveniently overlook it.

As Iain notes also, those twin moons (dukari) were invariably stamped on the native made blades that were apparently termed 'masri' and used throughout the Sahara on takouba. This example I think is a brilliant example as it was clearly long in circulation as seen by the wavering edges reflecting the rough sharpening with stones in the desert.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As Iain has well noted, this blade might tenuously be late 18th c. and really nothing that distinguishes it as European.
The descriptive term the dealer might have prudently used is 'of the style' of many 16th century and later blades. In the defense of many dealers, many of them actually believe this, some conveniently overlook it.

As Iain notes also, those twin moons (dukari) were invariably stamped on the native made blades that were apparently termed 'masri' and used throughout the Sahara on takouba. This example I think is a brilliant example as it was clearly long in circulation as seen by the wavering edges reflecting the rough sharpening with stones in the desert.

Well noted Jim, the issue I think is that this triple fuller pattern blade was in existence in the European context for several centuries as well as widely copied abroad. This blade may well be European, even if the marks are somewhat spurious.

I don't have the swords anymore but I still have something of an image archive left from the 'takouba years' and this is one that I would consider has actual European half moons potentially. The difference is quite evident I would say.

[Marc M.]

Originally Posted by Iain

Well noted Jim, the issue I think is that this triple fuller pattern blade was in existence in the European context for several centuries as well as widely copied abroad. This blade may well be European, even if the marks are somewhat spurious.

I don't have the swords anymore but I still have something of an image archive left from the 'takouba years' and this is one that I would consider has actual European half moons potentially. The difference is quite evident I would say.

Markings on takoubas have been discussed at length on the forum, especially the dukari. We have no indication of how many lemmets were imported from Europe to North Africa in recent centuries, but may assume tens of thousands. We also know that not every blade entering North Africa had a mark. That they were in by traders often provided locally with an imitation mark is known.
It becomes difficult when those dealers possess stamps made in Europe. What I wonder is if a European dealer to get more of his blades applied markings himself.
Seems to me a gray area to place marks of a high quality. The often locally applied markings are usually clearly identifiable.
Regards
Marc

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Marc M.

Markings on takoubas have been discussed at length on the forum, especially the dukari. We have no indication of how many lemmets were imported from Europe to North Africa in recent centuries, but may assume tens of thousands. We also know that not every blade entering North Africa had a mark. That they were in by traders often provided locally with an imitation mark is known.
It becomes difficult when those dealers possess stamps made in Europe. What I wonder is if a European dealer to get more of his blades applied markings himself.
Seems to me a gray area to place marks of a high quality. The often locally applied markings are usually clearly identifiable.
Regards
Marc

Short answer is yes, I have long suspected this based on trade records and the volume of blades being exported. I've written about this before and we have period records to backup how big the trade was.

[Marc M.]

Originally Posted by Iain

Short answer is yes, I have long suspected this based on trade records and the volume of blades being exported. I've written about this before and we have period records to backup how big the trade was.

Hi Iain
Do you remember where on the forum you wrote about it?
Regards
Marc

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Marc M.

Hi Iain
Do you remember where on the forum you wrote about it?
Regards
Marc

It's in the document I emailed you. Page 15 and has footnotes for further reading on the topic.

[Marc M.]

Originally Posted by Iain

It's in the document I emailed you. Page 15 and has footnotes for further reading on the topic.

I did not receive an email from you.

[Marc M.]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As Iain has well noted, this blade might tenuously be late 18th c. and really nothing that distinguishes it as European.
The descriptive term the dealer might have prudently used is 'of the style' of many 16th century and later blades. In the defense of many dealers, many of them actually believe this, some conveniently overlook it.

As Iain notes also, those twin moons (dukari) were invariably stamped on the native made blades that were apparently termed 'masri' and used throughout the Sahara on takouba. This example I think is a brilliant example as it was clearly long in circulation as seen by the wavering edges reflecting the rough sharpening with stones in the desert.

Hi Jim
Dealers and collectors with many years of experience on the counter like to throw some weight around when it comes to their expertise. I buy most objects online, good pictures are essential to make an assessment, sometimes you take a gamble. Occasionally things go wrong but usually things turn out well. Discourse at a distance has its limitations, often descriptions are incomplete and even totally wrong. If you see the potential of the object with a faulty description you can buy it for a modest price, The other way around also happens, of course.
So too with this takouba. I did not pay a 16th century price but rather 20th century. This indicates to me that the 16th century allocation was not realistic.
It remains a challenge to date these fascinating objects over time.
Regards
Marc