2 Yatagans for comment

Cerjak · 26th February 2012, 06:13 PM

As previously said I don't know a lot about sword .
This is 2 Yatagans (if I 'm not wrong )from my collection .
I only want to know if they are good collectable Items for a sword collector.
Any comment are welcome.
Regards

Cerjak

Cerjak · 26th February 2012, 06:29 PM

second one

ariel · 26th February 2012, 07:07 PM

No, they are NOT collectable. They are Chinese junk.
I am ready to take them off your hands right away.

:-)

Rick · 26th February 2012, 07:27 PM

Magnificent piece !
The engraving is beautiful .

Ariel, may I have the email address of this Chinese Faker please .

Cerjak · 26th February 2012, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

No, they are NOT collectable. They are Chinese junk.
I am ready to take them off your hands right away.

:-)

I so stupid ,before to post I have forget to remove the serail number !!
So you know that I still have 1877 units available and I could supply you easily!!
CERJAK

TVV · 26th February 2012, 08:47 PM

The first yataghan is a magnificent piece, thanks for sharing. The style of the ears, encased in silver places it to the Western Balkans. 1878 was the end of the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78, which marked the liberation of Bulgaria and the independence of Serbia and Montenegro, with the latter two countries getting significant territorial gains. The elaborate scabbard and hilt may have been comissioned to mark this event by a participant in this war, most likely from Montenegro. We will never know, but it is fun to speculate.
Regards,
Teodor

LewisB · 27th February 2012, 05:14 AM

Lovely, lovely pieces.

May I ask, how do they feel in the hand? At first blush, the ears on the 1878 piece "look" like they might be uncomfortable, but that is based on simply looking at them and having no experience with yataghans.

(Is there an accepted transliteration for these? With H or without?)

SERGIU · 27th February 2012, 10:16 AM

The short yataghan-style knife is referred as Marine-yataghan by most Balkan dealers,(maybe because of his size) but also as belosapac bichaq or bicak. personally I believe that they are knives carried by christians in the Balkan areas, as ottoman laws forbidded christians to carry yats or swords with long blades.(only blades as long as the opening of a human hand).
The metal hilt yathagan dated 1878 seems greek to me, because of the decorations especially the female figure on the scabbard. Most of our Balkan edged weapons dated 1878-1890(mainly 1878) are made in Bosnia, and clearly different in style to your yat.This one has indeed Balkan style ears, but nothing else in common with belosapac yataghans made in Boka Kotorska, Foca, Uzice etc
1878 was also the year of a forgotten war, the "pacification of Bosnia", when austro hungarian units (also troops from my hometown) fought the patriots of Bosnia and occupied the former ottoman sandjak .

Cerjak · 27th February 2012, 11:34 AM

Again a lot of knowing that will help to have more knowledge on those sword history
Thank you SERGIU&TTV

stelio · 27th February 2012, 12:21 PM

Hello. for large giatagan would say definitely that are from GREECE, the decoration on the handle and the bag is identical to that of northern Greece. the short giatagan except that the reference call it navy and was one of the weapons that were the Christians in the Balkans.

Royston · 27th February 2012, 01:38 PM

Cerjak

They are both beautiful.

Roy

PS

Please send me the other 1,877 !!!!

SERGIU · 27th February 2012, 05:55 PM

Lewis, i can assure you that yataghans with balkan style ears fit great in the hand when using the weapon for his main purpose, slashing and chopping.there is a specific way to hold the grip.Also when stuck between ribs or other bones the form of the ears helps to extract the blade. One more use for the big ears of the yataghan grip- when the arnautka or tancica long rifle needs to be fired, simply stick your yataghan into the ground put the barrel between the ears and let them support the barrel for greater accuracy.

Battara · 27th February 2012, 07:00 PM

My favorite is the silver yat - but I am partial to Balkan yats anyway with bling.

laEspadaAncha · 27th February 2012, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SERGIU

One more use for the big ears of the yataghan grip- when the arnautka or tancica long rifle needs to be fired, simply stick your yataghan into the ground put the barrel between the ears and let them support the barrel for greater accuracy.

Now that fascinates me...

I have a collapsable monopod purpose-built for the same reason, and this is admittedly the first instance I've heard of the shallow groove between the ears of a yat being used for this function. Very cool... and beautiful, the both of them.

Sylektis · 27th February 2012, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SERGIU

The short yataghan-style knife is referred as Marine-yataghan by most Balkan dealers,(maybe because of his size) but also as belosapac bichaq or bicak. personally I believe that they are knives carried by christians in the Balkan areas, as ottoman laws forbidded christians to carry yats or swords with long blades.(only blades as long as the opening of a human hand).
The metal hilt yathagan dated 1878 seems greek to me, because of the decorations especially the female figure on the scabbard. Most of our Balkan edged weapons dated 1878-1890(mainly 1878) are made in Bosnia, and clearly different in style to your yat.This one has indeed Balkan style ears, but nothing else in common with belosapac yataghans made in Boka Kotorska, Foca, Uzice etc
1878 was also the year of a forgotten war, the "pacification of Bosnia", when austro hungarian units (also troops from my hometown) fought the patriots of Bosnia and occupied the former ottoman sandjak .

I agreed, I think is Greek.
Look these 2 photos of a Greek Kilij with very similar decoration and the crown of King George I of Greece. (1863-1913)

LewisB · 27th February 2012, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SERGIU

Lewis, i can assure you that yataghans with balkan style ears fit great in the hand when using the weapon for his main purpose, slashing and chopping.there is a specific way to hold the grip.Also when stuck between ribs or other bones the form of the ears helps to extract the blade. One more use for the big ears of the yataghan grip- when the arnautka or tancica long rifle needs to be fired, simply stick your yataghan into the ground put the barrel between the ears and let them support the barrel for greater accuracy.

Many thanks.

eftihis · 28th February 2012, 12:29 AM

While the style of engraving is definetely looking like Greek works of the same era, i do not think this is Greek.
The reason is the female figure depicted.
This figure is supposed to represent godess AThena, so even in its naif form of represantation it needs to have a helmet and a shiled together with the spear. (See other examples below). Also is not likely to be depicted breast naked, although in one of the photos (on the musket) looks naked in a less obvious way.
This figure looks more like a tribal female warrior from some African tribe!
I find it hard to believe that a silver artist as well as his client were so iliterate to accept such a representation, especially in 1870s, where Greece was almost 50 years free, and schooling and education gave a more clear picture about ancient Greece.
My thinking is that is made by a non-Greek Balkan artist, who has seen a work with godess AThena depicted, and copied the style and the godess in a very vague way, without knowing the meaning and the symbolism of the figure.

SERGIU · 28th February 2012, 07:02 PM

kalispera Eftihis,
now you have a point here,and you might be right,maybe a forgotten engraver artist from skodra or elbasan tried to copy the greek style female figure and came up with this ...
the examples in your pics especially the last one with the kariophili stock were very convincing.

Sylektis · 22nd December 2024, 08:12 PM

Twelve years later, after it apparently changed hands, it ended up being sold like this, along with other gold-plated weapons.

gp · 22nd December 2024, 08:30 PM

FYI: 1878 was the end of the war between Russia and Ottoman empire ending in the Treaty of San Stefano, followed by the Congress of Berlin, with an enormous impact on the Balkans : the creation of several nations, annexation of Bosnia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Berlin

and prelude to the Balkan wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_Wars

and WWI

as for the decoration on the blade and grip/hilt of the long yataghan, this is not as refined and detailed as the Ottoman ones from the Balkans...see pics

yet the "simplicity" and floral decoration reminds me a little of 3 knives I have from Serbia, which were made just after the war between the Principality of Serbia and the Ottoman Empire. In conjunction with the Principality of Montenegro.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia...6%E2%80%931878) to see this you need to click on the link as shown in the last pic

The 3 knives have a steel blade but copper hilt and scabbard with nice but simple similar floral decoration, but the long yataghan as such I have never seen before....

gp · 23rd December 2024, 04:23 PM

the first 2 posts intriged me and caused many questions...
first the dagger , bichaq:

it looks similar like an old one ; a priest’s dagger from time of First Serbian Uprising (14 February 1804, to 7 October 1813) but sadly with a terrible modern(?) repair ( between the 2 red arrows)

gp · 23rd December 2024, 04:25 PM

as for the yataghan, I did find a similar kind of scabbard, ownd by a collector from Romania, with floral design but without the 1878 inscription, and yet a more traditional one...

very interesting but I have no answer about the age on the bichaq and yataghan of post 1 and 2...left with too many questions.
Does any of you know more?

gp · 23rd December 2024, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sylektis

Twelve years later, after it apparently changed hands, it ended up being sold like this, along with other gold-plated weapons.

I have seen yataghans being made now and sold on Turkish websites ( see enclosed pics) which do look very like the ones in post 1 and 2.
These new made ones are nothing like the real Ottoman, Balkan or Greek ones though...
Whether this is the case if they are new ones or real old ones looking at items on post # 1 and 2, I can't tell...
you need to hold the yataghan in your hand and be able to inspect it.
Hard to tell from a picture....

26th February 2012, 06:13 PM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	2 Yatagans for comment As previously said I don't know a lot about sword . This is 2 Yatagans (if I 'm not wrong )from my collection . I only want to know if they are good collectable Items for a sword collector. Any comment are welcome. Regards Cerjak Attached Images

26th February 2012, 06:29 PM	#2
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	second one smaller second one Attached Images

26th February 2012, 07:27 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,301	File Under Magnificent piece ! The engraving is beautiful . Ariel, may I have the email address of this Chinese Faker please .

27th February 2012, 11:34 AM	#9
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	thank you Again a lot of knowing that will help to have more knowledge on those sword history Thank you SERGIU&TTV

28th February 2012, 12:29 AM	#17
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	While the style of engraving is definetely looking like Greek works of the same era, i do not think this is Greek. The reason is the female figure depicted. This figure is supposed to represent godess AThena, so even in its naif form of represantation it needs to have a helmet and a shiled together with the spear. (See other examples below). Also is not likely to be depicted breast naked, although in one of the photos (on the musket) looks naked in a less obvious way. This figure looks more like a tribal female warrior from some African tribe! I find it hard to believe that a silver artist as well as his client were so iliterate to accept such a representation, especially in 1870s, where Greece was almost 50 years free, and schooling and education gave a more clear picture about ancient Greece. My thinking is that is made by a non-Greek Balkan artist, who has seen a work with godess AThena depicted, and copied the style and the godess in a very vague way, without knowing the meaning and the symbolism of the figure. Attached Images

26th February 2012, 07:07 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	No, they are NOT collectable. They are Chinese junk. I am ready to take them off your hands right away. :-)

26th February 2012, 08:47 PM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,644	The first yataghan is a magnificent piece, thanks for sharing. The style of the ears, encased in silver places it to the Western Balkans. 1878 was the end of the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78, which marked the liberation of Bulgaria and the independence of Serbia and Montenegro, with the latter two countries getting significant territorial gains. The elaborate scabbard and hilt may have been comissioned to mark this event by a participant in this war, most likely from Montenegro. We will never know, but it is fun to speculate. Regards, Teodor

27th February 2012, 05:14 AM	#7
LewisB Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Amarillo, TX, USA Posts: 8	Lovely, lovely pieces. May I ask, how do they feel in the hand? At first blush, the ears on the 1878 piece "look" like they might be uncomfortable, but that is based on simply looking at them and having no experience with yataghans. (Is there an accepted transliteration for these? With H or without?)

27th February 2012, 10:16 AM	#8
SERGIU Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Timisoara, Romania Posts: 32	The short yataghan-style knife is referred as Marine-yataghan by most Balkan dealers,(maybe because of his size) but also as belosapac bichaq or bicak. personally I believe that they are knives carried by christians in the Balkan areas, as ottoman laws forbidded christians to carry yats or swords with long blades.(only blades as long as the opening of a human hand). The metal hilt yathagan dated 1878 seems greek to me, because of the decorations especially the female figure on the scabbard. Most of our Balkan edged weapons dated 1878-1890(mainly 1878) are made in Bosnia, and clearly different in style to your yat.This one has indeed Balkan style ears, but nothing else in common with belosapac yataghans made in Boka Kotorska, Foca, Uzice etc 1878 was also the year of a forgotten war, the "pacification of Bosnia", when austro hungarian units (also troops from my hometown) fought the patriots of Bosnia and occupied the former ottoman sandjak .

27th February 2012, 12:21 PM	#10
stelio Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 97	Hello. for large giatagan would say definitely that are from GREECE, the decoration on the handle and the bag is identical to that of northern Greece. the short giatagan except that the reference call it navy and was one of the weapons that were the Christians in the Balkans.

27th February 2012, 01:38 PM	#11
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Cerjak They are both beautiful. Roy PS Please send me the other 1,877 !!!!

27th February 2012, 05:55 PM	#12
SERGIU Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Timisoara, Romania Posts: 32	Lewis, i can assure you that yataghans with balkan style ears fit great in the hand when using the weapon for his main purpose, slashing and chopping.there is a specific way to hold the grip.Also when stuck between ribs or other bones the form of the ears helps to extract the blade. One more use for the big ears of the yataghan grip- when the arnautka or tancica long rifle needs to be fired, simply stick your yataghan into the ground put the barrel between the ears and let them support the barrel for greater accuracy.

27th February 2012, 07:00 PM	#13
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,240	My favorite is the silver yat - but I am partial to Balkan yats anyway with bling.

28th February 2012, 07:02 PM	#18
SERGIU Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Timisoara, Romania Posts: 32	kalispera Eftihis, now you have a point here,and you might be right,maybe a forgotten engraver artist from skodra or elbasan tried to copy the greek style female figure and came up with this ... the examples in your pics especially the last one with the kariophili stock were very convincing.

22nd December 2024, 08:12 PM	#19
Sylektis Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 138	Twelve years later, after it apparently changed hands, it ended up being sold like this, along with other gold-plated weapons. Attached Images

22nd December 2024, 08:30 PM	#20
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 780	FYI: 1878 was the end of the war between Russia and Ottoman empire ending in the Treaty of San Stefano, followed by the Congress of Berlin, with an enormous impact on the Balkans : the creation of several nations, annexation of Bosnia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Berlin and prelude to the Balkan wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_Wars and WWI as for the decoration on the blade and grip/hilt of the long yataghan, this is not as refined and detailed as the Ottoman ones from the Balkans...see pics yet the "simplicity" and floral decoration reminds me a little of 3 knives I have from Serbia, which were made just after the war between the Principality of Serbia and the Ottoman Empire. In conjunction with the Principality of Montenegro. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia...6%E2%80%931878) to see this you need to click on the link as shown in the last pic The 3 knives have a steel blade but copper hilt and scabbard with nice but simple similar floral decoration, but the long yataghan as such I have never seen before.... Attached Images Last edited by gp; 22nd December 2024 at 11:55 PM.

23rd December 2024, 04:23 PM	#21
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 780	the first 2 posts intriged me and caused many questions... first the dagger , bichaq: it looks similar like an old one ; a priest’s dagger from time of First Serbian Uprising (14 February 1804, to 7 October 1813) but sadly with a terrible modern(?) repair ( between the 2 red arrows) Attached Images Last edited by gp; 23rd December 2024 at 07:30 PM.

23rd December 2024, 04:25 PM	#22
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 780	as for the yataghan, I did find a similar kind of scabbard, ownd by a collector from Romania, with floral design but without the 1878 inscription, and yet a more traditional one... very interesting but I have no answer about the age on the bichaq and yataghan of post 1 and 2...left with too many questions. Does any of you know more? Attached Images Last edited by gp; 23rd December 2024 at 07:28 PM.