Luzon or Panay?

[JeffS]

The overall style of this knife seems Luzon but lack of peen, chisel grind, and leather scabbard throat are all common Visayan features. Ferule is brass, guard is copper. OAL 16" with 12" blade.

[Sajen]

Hi Jeff,

Nice long dagger you show us! And I can understand your question, I am not really sure as well! But I am sure that I have seen similar ones before.

Regards,
Detlef

[chmorshuutz]

I'll lean towards Panay. It looks similar to those from Iloilo or Antique province, though not certain about the blade profile.

[RobT]

Hi All,

My example is probably newer but perhaps it will help with origin.
Specs: 9.875" Girunting Blade, Dark brown wood hilt with aluminum inlay (pommel inlay missing), Brass ferrule and ”S” shaped aluminum cross guard, Wood sheath with aluminum inlay, aluminum and leather throat, Brass and aluminum chape.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Ian]

Hi Rob,


Does your example have a full length tang? There seems to be a plate at the end of the hilt.

[JeffS]

Originally Posted by RobT

Hi All,

My example is probably newer but perhaps it will help with origin.
Specs: 9.875" Girunting Blade, Dark brown wood hilt with aluminum inlay (pommel inlay missing), Brass ferrule and ”S” shaped aluminum cross guard, Wood sheath with aluminum inlay, aluminum and leather throat, Brass and aluminum chape.

Sincerely,
RobT

Shows this is a style vs odd ball since I agree my example seems older. I was curious how the round chape would look, great to see one intact.

[RobT]

Hi Ian,
It is a blind tang. What you are seeing as plate is actually the end of the wood hilt. It looks like a plate because it stands proud of the shallow cut outs for the missing (presumably aluminum) pommel ornaments.

Hi JeffS,
Yes, given the close similarity of the two pieces in blade, hilt, and sheath, it appears to be a type and not just a one off. It is the only Philippine "Bowie style" blade in my collection with a chisel grind. It makes me wonder even more strongly if the Philippine "Bowie" wasn't developed in the Philippines independently of the US Bowie style. The two clip points differ markedly with the Philippine clip point being far longer than the US version. Is it possible that the Philippine clip point was already in existence prior to WWII and just found favor with US service men because they were used to the clip point form?

Sincerely,
RobT

[Ian]

Rob,

Thanks for the clarification. The prominent "chisel" grind on these knives suggests that a Visayan origin is more likely than a Luzon origin. There are some regions within the island of Luzon that produce knives with a chisel grind, but they are relatively uncommon.

I would look at other areas of the Visayas as possible origins also. Cebu may be a possibility. It is a densely populated island that is politically important and likely to have a lot of foreigners interested in this knife style. Also the Eastern Visayas (Leyte and Samar) were the landing place for Macarthur's forces when he famously returned to the Philippines in WWII.

As far as the "Bowie" descriptor used so frequently nowadays, this is mostly a U.S. infatuation. Clipped knives have been around longer than the original "Bowie" knife. The practice of calling almost any clipped-point fixed blade a "Bowie knife" has got out of hand in relation to what the original knife is believed to have been. It seems to have become more of a marketing term than a defensible description of a class of large fighting knife.

The knife you show, excluding the chisel grind on the edge, is probably derived originally from various Mediterranean knives (fixed and folding blades) that were brought to the islands by the Spanish colonialists. IIRC the Spanish/Mediterranean clipped knives knives date back at least as far as the 18th C, perhaps earlier. There are some similar blade forms in Mexico that likely trace their origins to Spanish-derived Mediterranean blade styles also.

[RobT]

Ian,

Your point about the Bowie knife nomenclature being overused in the US is well taken, especially when you consider that exactly what the original Rezin Bowie produced item looked like is unknown and that many British made blades with spear points were sold in 19th century America as “Bowies”. About all you can say is that a Bowie is a large fixed blade knife with a cross guard (of various configurations) and very likely also has a blade with a clip point.
That the clip point has been around for a long time is also indisputable. For example, the Laguiole was first produced at around the same time as the first Bowie and clip point navajas go back further than that.
All of the above notwithstanding, I don’t have any fixed blade/cross guard/clip point knives from the Philippines in my collection (about 20 all toll) that I would date to before WWII nor have I ever seen any. Does anyone have an example to show us? What I would like to know is whether the so called Philippine Bowie style knife was a native development made prior to WWII or whether it was just a marketing ploy designed to sell knives to US troops.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by RobT

That the clip point has been around for a long time is also indisputable. For example, the Laguiole was first produced at around the same time as the first Bowie and clip point navajas go back further than that.
All of the above notwithstanding, I don’t have any fixed blade/cross guard/clip point knives from the Philippines in my collection (about 20 all toll) that I would date to before WWII nor have I ever seen any. Does anyone have an example to show us?

Here you go Rob! From my collection, around 1900 (my guess), Luzon.

Regards,
Detlef

[RobT]

Sajen,

As I mentioned in my earlier post, in the US, Bowies can come with or without a clip point (many 19th century British examples have a spear point). Bowies also come with a variety of hilts and cross guard shapes but the three indispensable characteristics of a traditional Bowie in the US are large size, fixed blade, and (above all) a cross guard (with or without D-guard). Legend has it that Bowies have a cross guard because Rezin Bowie cut his hand severely when his hand slid up the blade of a knife he was using to kill a calf. Your example lacks the cross guard. I don’t have a single example of a “Philippine Bowie” in my collection that doesn’t have a cross guard. So, the question remains, is the “Philippine Bowie” as exemplified by so many WWII souvenirs a creation made especially after WWII for sale to US troops or was it an indigenous creation totally separate from US influence?

Sincerely,
RobT

[Ian]

Rob,

I feel confident that we will find Philippine examples with guards that are pre-WWII, and even pre-1900, that meet the Bowie knife characteristics you defined.

As a starter, you will find small examples with guards in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18769

I'll keep looking.

[RobT]

Ian,

I went to the link you provided and found six knives with cross guards. Although it has a cross guard, I don’t think anyone would consider Robert’s example (made by Castro and Son) to be in any way be consistent what would be termed a Bowie (especially the yataghan-like blade). The same can be said of your Apalit knife with a cross guard (and the 1945 date takes it out of contention anyway). Obviously, Battara’s serpentine bladed short sword with cross guard doesn’t qualify.
This leaves us with three knives for consideration. The aluminum ferrule and cross guard on Rafngard’s knife makes a WWII vintage a pretty safe bet. Rafngard’s other example (which is completely consistent with the Philippine Bowie style WWII bring back) has a brass ferrule and cross guard so it could have conceivably been made prior to WWII but, on the other hand, there is nothing about it to say that it couldn’t have been made post WWII either and Rafngard offers no opinion on age.
We are now left your N Castro blade which, like Rafngard’s brass mounted example, is exactly the type of knife I am talking about. Unlike Rafngard, you do give an age estimate and say, “Judging from the writing on this one, which is in the Art Nouveau/Art Deco style, I would guess this one dates from 1920-1930.”
As a big fan of the Art Nouveau (and a lesser fan of the Art Deco) and as a former typographer, please indulge my brief didacticism because it is important to the topic at hand. Art Nouveau is based on the curvilinear organic line and the typefaces chosen echo this (take a look at Alphonse Mucha’s advertising posters). Böcklin is the archetypical Nouveau typeface. Art Deco, on the other hand consists of geometric, machine made shapes (both straight and curved) and the type faces (usually san serif) reflect this. Compare the work of Mucha with the poster for the ocean liner Normandie by Adolphe Mouron Cassandre and you will see that the zeitgeist behind Art Nouveau is totally different from that of Art Deco. As a matter of fact, Deco was a reaction against Nouveau which was considered old fashioned.
The type on your knife is Deco. The deco period is given as 1910-ish to the 1930s but it really didn’t end there. After the Deco came Stramline Moderne (and American Streamline) which was even more spare and extended the style into the 1940s. Still not done, the Deco sensibility carried forward and was democratized (or, depending on your point of view, vulgarized) as the Nifty Fifties. A 59 caddy is as Deco as it gets.
So, based on the typeface, your blade could have been made anywhere from 1910-ish to the early 1960s.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Ian]

I'm still looking Rob.

[Ian]

Rob, this one may be more convincing. It is a Spanish-Filipino knife with a blade of triangular cross-section. There is a small bone guard tipped with brass. The tang does not extend to the end of the hilt. It may have been made in the Visayas. Being from the Spanish Colonial period in the Philippines, it would pre-date 1900.

Blade length = 8.5 in.
OAL = 12.5 in.

I'm still looking through my collection.

Ian.
.

[RobT]

Ian,

Actually, not just very convincing, completely convincing if the age estimate is correct. I am posting a knife in my collection that has a nodding similarity to yours but that I had always assumed was post WWII. The blade length of mine (8.625”), is similar to yours but the OAL (14.5”) is greater than yours due to the Janus head pommel. No Sheath. Could it be that mine is a lot older than I thought? Both of our knives check all the Bowie boxes and the chisel grinds indicate that they weren't just a bespoke blades made by a Filipino smith following the instructions of a European or US client but rather a knife type that had been absorbed into the northern Philippine culture. Could the triangle at the base of the blade on yours perhaps point toward a Philippine independence group? That would further cement the 19th century date. I would love to see any other examples you (or anyone else) may have.

Sincerely,
RobT

PS: Your knife is a beaut.

[Ian]

Thanks for the comments Rob. Yes, this does seem to be a recognized style of Philippines knife. Triangular cross-section blades are also found on swords. I have one from roughly the same period that has an inscription, Recuerdo Republicano, at forte. There was some debate about what this actually meant, but the consensus was it probably stood for "Recuerdo el Republicano," or Remember the Republican. So there may be a link to the Katipuneros. The marks on the ricasso of the knife above are not specific to the Katipunan or the Philippines revolution AFAIK.

Blades of triangular cross-section were probably made in Manila and surrounding provinces during the Spanish era. I have nothing specific to point to for this notion, other than it was the major area of Spanish concentration and the nice knife I show above likely would have belonged to a rich Spaniard or perhaps a rich Mestizzo. The yellow metal areas appear to be gilded.

The blade on that knife is pretty convincing for being about 100+ years old. It has a nice patina and the "spidery" marks of an old high carbon steel blade.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by RobT

Ian,

...I am posting a knife in my collection that has a nodding similarity to yours but that I had always assumed was post WWII...

Rob, I do think this one you show is likely from the Spanish Colonial period. Hard to say without having it in hand. The small cross guard with proportionately large "balls" at each end and centrally is a likely Spanish decorative feature in my view. Also, the overall attention to detail in the finish seems to be high, and that was often seen on items made for influential Spaniards and Mestizzos. The same was true for the revolutionaries who led the First Republic.

I have other Spanish-Filipino colonial knives and will see what pictures I have of those.

Regards,

Ian

[RobT]

Ian,
If your knife is that early, I think mine is also ... which isn't hard to take.

To Everybody,
I have two last question about the "Philippine Bowie" style. Are they still being made and are they carried by the locals?

Sincerely,
RobT

[Ian]

Rob,

Here is another Spanish colonial knife from the Philippines. Unfortunately, the blade has been polished to mirror brightness by a previous owner. I don't think you would call this a "Bowie" but it does have a fairly large blade of about 10.5 in. and a guard. There is an unsharpened false edge along the distal part of the blade's spine.
.

[Ian]

And a straight version of the triangular cross-section blade. This one appears to have some age. I would say WWII era, perhaps a little earlier. Despite having a symmetrical double-edged blade, it has an asymmetrical S-guard. OAL out of scabbard is about 15.75 in.
.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by RobT

... I have two last question about the "Philippine Bowie" style. Are they still being made and are they carried by the locals?

Sincerely,
RobT

Rob, I think large-bladed knives, with or without guards, are still being made. I don't follow the present trends in Filipino knives very closely. There are facebook pages where these can be found. I don't follow them, but others here may have a link for you. Also, some of our members living in the Philippines are in a much better position to say what is made these days. I hope thy will join in here.

[RobT]

an,

The slanted guard and drooping blade/hilt arrangement notwithstanding, I would say that the first example in your latest post is a Philippine Bowie. Currently made sub-hilt Bowies sometimes show these very features. Again, keep in mind that the shape of the original knife created by Resin Bowie is unknown. The only things etched in stone appear to be its large size and cross guard. A look at the wide range of knife styles sold as Bowies in the US by British cutlers supports this. There are even 19th century British accounts calling folding sheath knives whose handles are only long enough to contain two thirds of the blade, Bowies. Given the above, we can surely allow Philippine smiths a good degree of stylistic latitude for their take on the Bowie design.
I would say that, save for the asymmetrical cross guard, your second example with its tapering, double edge blade is an Arkansas toothpick. However, the definition of an Arkansas toothpick as having a tapering, bilaterally symmetrical blade with a bilaterally symmetrical hilt and cross guard isn’t universal. There are 19th century accounts that say the name Arkansas toothpick is synonymous with Bowie.
As far as current carry goes, government restrictions may play a large role in what is permitted in the north (especially in more populous areas). Hopefully somebody in the Philippines can report on the current situation and, if carry of large knives is still allowed, what type of knives are favored.
In any event, those are two really great knives you have there.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Ian]

Thanks Rob. I was hoping Jim McDougall might have dropped in and commented on this topic of "Bowies" in non-U.S. cultures and large fighting knives in general. Obviously, there could be parallel development of large fighting knives among different cultures, simply based on the effectiveness of such weapons at close quarters. There is only so many ways you can shape such a blade, and some similarity may be expected. That said, as you point out there was some imitation of the supposed Bowie knife, especially in western cultures.

We do seem to have evidence here of a Spanish/Mediterranean influence on Filipino blades in the latter part of the 19th C. To what extent the "Bowie" idea filtered its way to the Philippines pre-1900 is impossible to say at this point.

Post-1900 there is direct involvement of the U.S. in the Philippines. After the Span-Am war it is likely that U.S. influence on local knife-making emerged quite strongly as U.S. military personnel increased in the islands. As you have pointed out also, during WWII and later saw an increase in large fighting knives of the "Bowie" type. Many of these were sold to U,S, forces stationed at Clarke AFB and Subic Bay. Many large bladed knives of that period had no guard, but there are also plenty of examples with guards.

Thanks for raising this interesting topic and I hope we will hear from more members about it.

Regards,

Ian.