European Officer's Sword ?

rickystl · 12th December 2024, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

I could be wrong but it looks to me like an 18th c French or English silver hilted smallsword possibly with an earlier rapier blade.

Even being a novice with blades, I wondered about that myself. The blade style and width at the hilt looks more like a rapier blade than the blades you typically see on these "court style" small swords. But it's attractive looking. Maybe a 17th Century blade and an 18th Century hilt ? Or am I wishing for too much ? LOL
I'm going to try and buy this sword.

Rick

rickystl · 12th December 2024, 06:32 PM

"Is the blade on your friend's sword etched? Mine is, but it doesn't show any marker's marks, though the work is quite nice. Long-tailed, parrot-like birds are depicted on both sides, but in different scenes. Sadly, the pommel nut is absent"

I have not personally seen the sword yet. But from the one photo it looks like a fairly heavy patina. Looks like I'll have to buy the sword to find out any etching. LOL

Rick

Jim McDougall · 19th December 2024, 03:10 AM

I have been intrigued by Spanish colonial swords virtually most of my life, and last year I wrote a paper on the short swords of Mexico and Alta California of the mod 18th into 19th c. known as 'espada anchas'.

For some time now I have been working on a paper on the 'long swords' of the caballeros, which actually is focused on the dress or court type swords which were the formal swords held by these Espagnol gentlemen. It is known that the 'Dons' had full length broadswords mounted under left leg attached to saddle for self defense on the trails or other riding. However these man were in varied degree skilled swordsmen, and jealously guarded the honor of themselves and their family.
Despite little recorded evidence of duels, if any, we know these men had traditional gentlemans swords of the times which would have been used on the field of honor if required.
While it is tempting to presume the familiar Spanish cup hilt would be the sword of choice in such instance, it is more probable that such swords would be one of these.......the small sword (ESPADIN in Spanish).

This example is remarkably similar to the top sword in plate 192, in "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821" (Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain , 1972, p.98). Here it is noted that these type of hilts similar to German and French of smallsword type of third quarter 18th century were used by Spanish .colonial officers in America
These had 17th century rapier blades mounted, and as these, seem to have been mounted in Mexico, with these blades from Toledo.

The example shown has a German made rapier blade which is likely from early to mid 18th century, and as often the case, uses spurious Spanish marks and names. TOMAS AIALA was a famed Toledo maker of the late 16th c. and his name used, as here on this blade, for over a century later. In typical German manner, this was more a provacative brand name. On the obverse side "IN TOLEDO".
"...every man had a good Spanish blade from Toledo"
-Don Antonio Francisco Coronel, Alta California

While these German rapier blades with spurious Spanish names are found in various cases on transitional rapiers earlier through the 17th century, it is most unusual to find one mounted on a latter 18th century smallsword.
By this time, the ubiquitous trefoil (three face) blade was the standard, and the transitional rapier period had long passed.

Only with the Spanish proclivity to traditiion in their swordsmanship would a rapier blade appear in a smallsword hilt this late (c. 1780-1810), and of course most probably in colonial regions, such as Alta California.

rickystl · 21st December 2024, 02:46 PM

Hi Jim

Thank You so much for your comprehensive reply. Much appreciated.

At first, I was thinking the blade may be much older than the hilt and simply re-purposed later on. But it appears the Spanish had the Germans continue making these blades later than imagined. Interesting. Now I understand the reasoning for the later, smaller hilt and the stylistically earlier blade.

And it seems my friend had a good example of exactly this type of Spanish sword.

Again, thanks so much for your response.

Rick

p.s. I was able to purchase this sword. He had no interest in our hobby.

Jim McDougall · 21st December 2024, 08:03 PM

Absolutely my pleasure Rick, and my opportunity to learn more on the conundrum of the smallsword. It is notably difficult to distinguish these intriguing yet under researched and commonly misunderstood swords as to nationality, as the style once developed, diffused thoroughly through Europe. That of course carried into the colonial regions of those nations.

As often the case, the blade is indeed much older than the hilt on this example. and this is not only due to the fact that swords often were rehilted through the years and of course generations. Heirloom blades obviously ended up being rehilted more to the favor or circumstances of the new owner of the 'blade'.

In the Spanish colonies these blades were brought in along with regular commerce for over a century, and the narrow rapier blades remained in favor as these remained in favor there much longer than in Europe, that is the famed cup hilt. As a result, there was a huge volume of these and other German made blades remaining in stores and circulation literally for generations.

The smallsword (as in this example) was a type of hilt which had consistent assembly of elements which is regarded as a FRENCH style, and a style of fencing with it that was different than the Spanish and Italian forms.

With these blades, J. Aylward "The Smallsword in England" (1945, p.34) addresses the German make of these blades:
"...German manufacturers held for many years an unchallenged monopoly of the trade in fine sword blades, and they did an ever increasing business not only with France and England, but more surprisingly with Spain and Italy, possibly because Solingen was quite ready to make any type of blade, and was perfectly indifferent whether it was to be stamped, IHN SALINGEN or EN TOLEDO, in the latter case with the name of some Spanish master addedd".

Op.cit. p.34;
"...it may seem strange that Toledo, renowned to this day for fine blades and such masters as Alonzo de Sahagun and TOMAS DE AIALA-incidentally both favorites with German manufacturers- was NOT an active competitor in the European market of the time. "

The dominance of the Solingen blade making machine lasted through centuries, and its scope is far beyond this discussion, but they indeed continued making blades for Spain, even up to the nominal reopening of Toledo factory in late 1760s.

IMO, this hilt is likely French or of French style and of latter 18th century due to the boat style guard (rather than bilobate) and vestigial pas d' ane. (the opposed loops just above the cross quillon). These loops were for the insertion of forefinger in grip, but here obviously non functional in that purpose.
The hilt recalls examples I have seen which were from War of 1812 period and with provenance to New Orleans, hence may have been either French or Spanish.

I hope some of the readers might enter their views toward this most interesting example. Since seeing it I know I have been compelled to research more on these swords, and it would be great to hear from those who have more experience in these areas.

19th December 2024, 03:10 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	I have been intrigued by Spanish colonial swords virtually most of my life, and last year I wrote a paper on the short swords of Mexico and Alta California of the mod 18th into 19th c. known as 'espada anchas'. For some time now I have been working on a paper on the 'long swords' of the caballeros, which actually is focused on the dress or court type swords which were the formal swords held by these Espagnol gentlemen. It is known that the 'Dons' had full length broadswords mounted under left leg attached to saddle for self defense on the trails or other riding. However these man were in varied degree skilled swordsmen, and jealously guarded the honor of themselves and their family. Despite little recorded evidence of duels, if any, we know these men had traditional gentlemans swords of the times which would have been used on the field of honor if required. While it is tempting to presume the familiar Spanish cup hilt would be the sword of choice in such instance, it is more probable that such swords would be one of these.......the small sword (ESPADIN in Spanish). This example is remarkably similar to the top sword in plate 192, in "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821" (Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain , 1972, p.98). Here it is noted that these type of hilts similar to German and French of smallsword type of third quarter 18th century were used by Spanish .colonial officers in America These had 17th century rapier blades mounted, and as these, seem to have been mounted in Mexico, with these blades from Toledo. The example shown has a German made rapier blade which is likely from early to mid 18th century, and as often the case, uses spurious Spanish marks and names. TOMAS AIALA was a famed Toledo maker of the late 16th c. and his name used, as here on this blade, for over a century later. In typical German manner, this was more a provacative brand name. On the obverse side "IN TOLEDO". "...every man had a good Spanish blade from Toledo" -Don Antonio Francisco Coronel, Alta California While these German rapier blades with spurious Spanish names are found in various cases on transitional rapiers earlier through the 17th century, it is most unusual to find one mounted on a latter 18th century smallsword. By this time, the ubiquitous trefoil (three face) blade was the standard, and the transitional rapier period had long passed. Only with the Spanish proclivity to traditiion in their swordsmanship would a rapier blade appear in a smallsword hilt this late (c. 1780-1810), and of course most probably in colonial regions, such as Alta California. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 19th December 2024 at 03:24 AM.

12th December 2024, 06:32 PM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,629	"Is the blade on your friend's sword etched? Mine is, but it doesn't show any marker's marks, though the work is quite nice. Long-tailed, parrot-like birds are depicted on both sides, but in different scenes. Sadly, the pommel nut is absent" I have not personally seen the sword yet. But from the one photo it looks like a fairly heavy patina. Looks like I'll have to buy the sword to find out any etching. LOL Rick

21st December 2024, 02:46 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,629	Hi Jim Thank You so much for your comprehensive reply. Much appreciated. At first, I was thinking the blade may be much older than the hilt and simply re-purposed later on. But it appears the Spanish had the Germans continue making these blades later than imagined. Interesting. Now I understand the reasoning for the later, smaller hilt and the stylistically earlier blade. And it seems my friend had a good example of exactly this type of Spanish sword. Again, thanks so much for your response. Rick p.s. I was able to purchase this sword. He had no interest in our hobby.

21st December 2024, 08:03 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Absolutely my pleasure Rick, and my opportunity to learn more on the conundrum of the smallsword. It is notably difficult to distinguish these intriguing yet under researched and commonly misunderstood swords as to nationality, as the style once developed, diffused thoroughly through Europe. That of course carried into the colonial regions of those nations. As often the case, the blade is indeed much older than the hilt on this example. and this is not only due to the fact that swords often were rehilted through the years and of course generations. Heirloom blades obviously ended up being rehilted more to the favor or circumstances of the new owner of the 'blade'. In the Spanish colonies these blades were brought in along with regular commerce for over a century, and the narrow rapier blades remained in favor as these remained in favor there much longer than in Europe, that is the famed cup hilt. As a result, there was a huge volume of these and other German made blades remaining in stores and circulation literally for generations. The smallsword (as in this example) was a type of hilt which had consistent assembly of elements which is regarded as a FRENCH style, and a style of fencing with it that was different than the Spanish and Italian forms. With these blades, J. Aylward "The Smallsword in England" (1945, p.34) addresses the German make of these blades: "...German manufacturers held for many years an unchallenged monopoly of the trade in fine sword blades, and they did an ever increasing business not only with France and England, but more surprisingly with Spain and Italy, possibly because Solingen was quite ready to make any type of blade, and was perfectly indifferent whether it was to be stamped, IHN SALINGEN or EN TOLEDO, in the latter case with the name of some Spanish master addedd". Op.cit. p.34; "...it may seem strange that Toledo, renowned to this day for fine blades and such masters as Alonzo de Sahagun and TOMAS DE AIALA-incidentally both favorites with German manufacturers- was NOT an active competitor in the European market of the time. " The dominance of the Solingen blade making machine lasted through centuries, and its scope is far beyond this discussion, but they indeed continued making blades for Spain, even up to the nominal reopening of Toledo factory in late 1760s. IMO, this hilt is likely French or of French style and of latter 18th century due to the boat style guard (rather than bilobate) and vestigial pas d' ane. (the opposed loops just above the cross quillon). These loops were for the insertion of forefinger in grip, but here obviously non functional in that purpose. The hilt recalls examples I have seen which were from War of 1812 period and with provenance to New Orleans, hence may have been either French or Spanish. I hope some of the readers might enter their views toward this most interesting example. Since seeing it I know I have been compelled to research more on these swords, and it would be great to hear from those who have more experience in these areas.