Early Yataghan for Comments and Discussion

[TVV]

I feel very fortunate to have acquired what I believe is a relatively early yataghan. The reason I think it is early is because of the blade profile - shorter and wider than later examples. I will expand on similar examples later.





It comes with a scabbard, which is covered in black leather but never had any metal furniture of any type. The blade is made of 4 rods of the so-called Turkish ribbon with a soft T-spine and a harder steel edge, with a maker's stamp. The grip scales are of elephant ivory, with small years and tri-lobate pommel. The band between the scales and the bolster are silver over tin.





There are two yataghans with similar blades, both of which are associated with the Great Turkish War. The first one is in the Vienna Military History Museum in the Turkenbeute exhibit, while the other one is in the Karlsruhe Turkenbeute Collection (#140 in the published catalogue).

[TVV]

The museum yataghans do not seem to have their scabbards, but there are other similar yataghans with scabbards which tend to invariably be covered in black leather, sometimes with similar decorative motives as on mine, but with silver chape and mouth fittings. A friend of mine in Bulgaria has a similar one, and the interesting part is that the scabbard fittings are hallmarked, but not with tughras. The hallmarks look quite European - does anyone recognize them?

I wonder if these fittings were added in a Central European context to a yataghan that was taken as trophy during the Great Turkish War.

[gp]

congratulations with your yataghan!
What confuses me a little is the different bolsters (indicated as #4 in the first picture) versus all the above pictures.
Any data on lenght of the blades or the age of the 4 pieces?

I took the liberty to put them together and can not figure out the difference versus age....but that could be my limited knowledge
The blade is very nice and in excellent condition, with a beautiful stamp.
Specially if I would follow your case with regards to being an early yataghan

some interesting info can be found in this publication:
https://www.iaras.org/iaras/filedown...0016(2017).pdf

unfortunately I could not find anything to provide more insight in publications from the museums in Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia and recent ones by Zoran Marcov, Head of Department National Museum of Banat,
Maybe other forum members can assist in this most interesting topic...

[TVV]

Good question on the lengths. Mine is about 62 cm overall. My friend's as the tape measure indicates is 57 cm overall. Number 140 in Karlsruher Turkenbeute is 75.5 cm.

Here are some more from Oriental Arms sold archive with a a length of 71 cm:


And another one, also 71 cm:


And a third one, with a similar hilt and bolster to mine, 60 cm long:



The bolsters are all over the place, and the hilt also vary from tri-lobate to square to very small ears. A couple of the ones above have what looks like a heart shaped frog button on the scabbard mouth, which would be unusual for an Ottoman weapon but much more in place in an Austrian context.

[gp]

thank you for the most interesting additional information!
I really do like the mark on your bolster very much ☼
My compliments, a very good "catch"☺

[TVV]

My friend has another one of these potentially earlier yataghans, but it is much bigger, at about 80 cm overall. Another difference is the dark horn hilt and the blade decoration, even if the blade also has layers of Turkish Ribbon.





It is similar to this one that was sold by Sotheby's many years ago. I will also attach a picture in case the link stops working or the image is removed.

https://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions...0/lot.260.html

[mariusgmioc]

In my oppinion, this is a recent (very recent) yataghan made in the style of older examples.

I have visited extensively museums in Turkey and haven't encountered any single example of old blade with "Turkish ribbon" pattern weld. In fact, all "Turkish ribbon" pattern welded examples I have seen were assumed from late 19th century blades... but they were most likely 20th century.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

In my oppinion, this is a recent (very recent) yataghan made in the style of older examples.

I have visited extensively museums in Turkey and haven't encountered any single example of old blade with "Turkish ribbon" pattern weld. In fact, all "Turkish ribbon" pattern welded examples I have seen were assumed from late 19th century blades... but they were most likely 20th century.

I know I am being baited, but for the purpose of enhancing the knowledge of the community on this forum, this is a point that will need to be addressed. Before I respond, I just have a few clarifying questions:
1. Of all the yataghans I have presented so far in this thread, is mine the only one that you deem to be of recent manufacture, or does this extend to all the examples, including those sold by Oriental Arms, Sotheby's, etc?
2. A search containing the words "Turkish ribbon" produces 71 threads since the forum moved to VBulletin. The majority contain yataghans with Turkish ribbon blades, with hilts ranging from Algeria through to Balkans to Asia Minor. Are they all modern, 20th century and later creations?
3. Apart from yataghans, there are palas, bichaqs and even kindjals and quaddaras with twistcore rods in the blades. Are those also modern, or is the argument that smiths in the Ottoman Empire and surrounding areas back in the day applied twistcore to pretty much all blades they made except for yataghans?

[gp]

Thank you very much ! Благодаря много! for your fair comment and most interesting questions ...

which, to be honest... I do not have an answer to but like the exchange of minds on this issue as for one there is a very valid point raised and secondly even the literature in and from both the Balkans and Turkey ( how interesting they are ) do not always give conclusive answers.

Nevertheless I find this contribution and pics of yours and your friend's and others most interesting

[gp]

Perhaps a small contribution….

Found some topics containing “ turkish ribbon” in this forum from quite some years ago

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20828

https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=168074

And a youtube vid, although Zeybek, it mentions the ribbon as well


https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=168074

An interesting item is the difference width’s of the yataghans pictures placed by TVV:
Some do look like the “standard” yataghan, whilst others seem to have a bigger “belly” close to the point.

I have no idea why or what the advantage or purpose of that would be for the weapon:
Does any of you know…?

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by TVV

I know I am being baited, but for the purpose of enhancing the knowledge of the community on this forum, this is a point that will need to be addressed. Before I respond, I just have a few clarifying questions:
1. Of all the yataghans I have presented so far in this thread, is mine the only one that you deem to be of recent manufacture, or does this extend to all the examples, including those sold by Oriental Arms, Sotheby's, etc?
2. A search containing the words "Turkish ribbon" produces 71 threads since the forum moved to VBulletin. The majority contain yataghans with Turkish ribbon blades, with hilts ranging from Algeria through to Balkans to Asia Minor. Are they all modern, 20th century and later creations?
3. Apart from yataghans, there are palas, bichaqs and even kindjals and quaddaras with twistcore rods in the blades. Are those also modern, or is the argument that smiths in the Ottoman Empire and surrounding areas back in the day applied twistcore to pretty much all blades they made except for yataghans?

I do not know about the other examples you mentioned, but I suspect most blades with "Turkish ribbon" to be late 19th century or early 20th century.

It wouldn't be an exception for the most prestigious auction houses to be dead wrong on dating their lots. Museums also...

From practical, mechanical point of view, "Turkish ribbon" pattern weld serves solely decorative reasons and does not contribute positively to the mechanical properties of the blade... on contrary.

But this is only my opinion, based on my own observations and personal research.

Ultimately, people believe what they want to believe.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I do not know about the other examples you mentioned, but I suspect most blades with "Turkish ribbon" to be late 19th century or early 20th century.

It wouldn't be an exception for the most prestigious auction houses to be dead wrong on dating their lots. Museums also...

From practical, mechanical point of view, "Turkish ribbon" pattern weld serves solely decorative reasons and does not contribute positively to the mechanical properties of the blade... on contrary.

But this is only my opinion, based on my own observations and personal research.

Ultimately, people believe what they want to believe.

Hello Marius,

I don't have an opinion myself on the subject but I know that everybody can be deadly wrong, also so called experts.
I miss a few words in your statement: "I could be wrong!"
I've noticed every time again that people put their personal opinion as a fact. I am careful with such statements, my two cents!

Regards,
Detlef

[Gustav]

The earliest dated yataghan with twisted rod pattern (Turkish ribbon) to my knowledge is from 1592. Around this date twisted rod pattern appears also in Asia and SEAsia.

[TVV]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion - it would not be a forum otherwise. And everyone reading this thread can form their own opinion based on the factual evidence presented both ways.

There are numerous examples of blades with rows of Turkish ribbon in this forum, on the internet, in museums and published in books. They are far too many to even attempt to list here. Then there are also numerous early Ottoman pattern welded barrels on firearms.

Interestingly enough, pattern welded blades also exist in Balkan folklore as for example "сабя диплянка" (sabya diplyanka), which in Bulgarian means "saber with folds" or "ribbon saber". This is different from сабя дамаскиня (sabya damaskinya), or Damascus sword, which would refer to one made of wootz. I believe there is a song about Krali Marko, a popular hero throughout the Balkans, and his fight with Musa Kesedzija, in which Marko shatters Musa's damaskinya with his diplyanka.

Here is an excerpt from a Bulgarian folk song about St. George fighting a "ламя" (lamya), which is a 3-headed Hydra like creature, which references pattern welded sabers twice:

че си зема сабя диплянка, (and he took his diplyanka)
сабя диплянка с дванайсет дипли (saber with twelve ribbons)

Разсърди се свети Георги, (St. George got angry)
че си извади сабя диплянка, (he pulled out his diplyanka saber)
че й пресече дор три глави, (and cut off all her three heads)

It is fairly obvious that the song is referencing a blade with rows of Turkish ribbon, especially in the part that goes into details such as the number of layers, in this case 12. The presence of such blades into folk songs would suggest that they were valued and predate the late 19th century.

GP's question on blade form is a good one. The examples with a widening toward the tip look similar to the machairas and falcattas of antiquity, and probably handle similarly. I am not a practitioner of HEMA, Kali or any other martial arts, so maybe someone with such a background can comment more on this.

An alternative explanation may have to do with these earlier yataghans being derived from Balkan utility knives, such as the shepherds' knives in Bulgaria, which are shorter and wider compared to the longer and more elegant blades into which yataghans ultimately evolved.

Here are some more examples. The first one is from the Bavarian Army Museum in Ingolstadt. It is interesting to see the rings on the scabbard for a baldric:


Then there is one published in the recent Gold and Damascus catalogue, # 75, with a long 80 cm blade and nine layers of twistcore:

[gp]

Originally Posted by TVV

I believe there is a song about Krali Marko, a popular hero throughout the Balkans, and his fight with Musa Kesedzija, in which Marko shatters Musa's damaskinya with his diplyanka.

Attachment 241815

for those interested, some nice songs from the Balkan about King Marko / Krali - Kralj Marko

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv3Renv5eyg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcLG_EnZldY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W39VIuTKOg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jj5tEXBfUs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_bMjAmEK24



some more info on the man:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5ioxYmEaCU
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Marko

Last but not least, thank you Teodor for the above info. It opens up quite some new perspective(s) and information.
As for martial arts; in my youth I practised the Indonesian Pencak Silat Setiah Hati but the weapons we used,
differ completley from these yataghans, hence my curiousity but also kind of "ingnorance" how they are used.
I can only tell like in my reply to Detlev how they feel in my hand and swinging around but that doesn't make me a specialist at all, au contraire ...☺

What fascinates me is the similarity with quite some weapons ( predecessors perhaps ? ) of the swords type of weapons in the region from the ancient times...5 -4 BC
Looking at these, more than 2500 years ago, it is interesting to know how these evolved and how they migh or might not be related to the yataghans we are know discussing...

[gp]

Question to all, and no..I am neither trying to bait any member nor playing games, no disrespect intended at all !
but seriously would like to know your opinion and more info about this new yataghan I recently purchased.

[TVV]

GP, congratulations on your new yataghan. I have what I believe is a similar yataghan, except mine has lost the original leather on the scabbard and has been shortened. The scabbard has a very similar pattern carved on it and ends similarly in a thimble at the chape. Based on the scabbard and the thimble, I used to think it was Algerian, but now I am not so sure. When I showed mine to some yataghan collectors in Bulgaria they thought that it was from Macedonia or Northern Greece, at least based on the hilt and bolster.






Your question about the relation between yataghans and the sikas and machairas of Thracians, Illyrians, Dacians and some of the Celts which settled in the Balkans during Antiquity is a very good one. I personally believe there is a relation, but I cannot prove it in any conclusive manner and I do not really want to create even more controversy in this thread.

[gp]

Originally Posted by TVV

GP, congratulations on your new yataghan. I have what I believe is a similar yataghan, except mine has lost the original leather on the scabbard and has been shortened. The scabbard has a very similar pattern carved on it and ends similarly in a thimble at the chape. Based on the scabbard and the thimble, I used to think it was Algerian, but now I am not so sure. When I showed mine to some yataghan collectors in Bulgaria they thought that it was from Macedonia or Northern Greece, at least based on the hilt and bolster.

Attachment 241859
Attachment 241860
Attachment 241862
Attachment 241863

Your question about the relation between yataghans and the sikas and machairas of Thracians, Illyrians, Dacians and some of the Celts which settled in the Balkans during Antiquity is a very good one. I personally believe there is a relation, but I cannot prove it in any conclusive manner and I do not really want to create even more controversy in this thread.

Thank you for your reply on my latest yataghan as I had some doubts.
That has been settled by your reply!
You don’t create a controversy at all, the opposite is the case :

You open a most interesting an valuable discussion, exchange of minds and more important provide proof ( where many do not come further than stating “ I think….” But don’ back up by pics, books and literature).
Hence I think your contribution to be very of added value and hope it will not refrain you from posting. Specially as it makes me wiser in this most fascinating subject.
The discussion on yataghan has more or less stopped in 2015 when it started in 2004 if I search the forum correctly. And on the Balkans and its cold weapons there are only a few with some detailed knowledge….

I also do think there is a correlation between the Antiquity and Ottoman ones in the Balkans(perhaps also to extend the Black Sea and Caucasian area…? As a kind of cross fertilization…?)


Take care and have a nice day !

Gunar

[TVV]

I am just an ordinary collector, not in academia and far from someone who can claim detailed knowledge. My thoughts on the origin of yataghans are below - it is mostly conjecture, and much of it may be impossible to ever prove, but more on that further down.

When it comes to yataghans, it is a weapon form that appears almost immediately following the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans, and I do not think this is a coincidence. Since there are no yataghans in Central Asia and there are no records of yataghans used by the Seljuks of Rum the form was not brought by the Ottomans, but rather appeared as a result of their expansion.

Machairas and sikas (forward curved blades) were used extensively in the Balkans prior to the Roman conquest, but obviously lost their military significance as they were replaced by the weapons brought by successive waves of invaders during the Migrations Period - Goths, Huns, Slavs, Avars, Bulgars, etc. However, the ethnic Thracian, Illyrian and Dacian (north of the Danube) element did not disappear, and probably kept a part of its material culture. It is possible the blade form survived in a scaled down, utilitarian version - an every day knife not much different from the more modern shepherds' knives.

The Ottomans banned peasants, both Christian and Muslim from wearing certain arms, such as swords and maces. Knives were not subject to the bans. As one of few self defense options available to peasants in the Ottoman Empire, it is easy to imagine how the size of every day knives grew to where they became of short sword proportions. There are parallels in other places - the bauerwehr in Central Europe, the arm daggers in the Sahel, etc.

Getting strong evidence to support the above theory is complicated, due to the following reasons:
1. Archaeological - following the Christianization of the Balkans, which started in the 4th century AD, there are no more burials of nobles and warriors with their entire military gear, or any military gear for that matter. This limits any finds to random ones and as a general rule finds of swords and daggers from the Middle Ages in the Balkans are far fewer than those from Antiquity. On top of the smaller sample size, there is the practical problem of dating the rusty remains of a forward curved blade pulled out of the ground - the organic materials are gone, so no carbon dating and there is hardly any archaeological context. How can one determine whether it is an ancient blade, a late medieval one or simply a poorly preserved 19th century one?
2. Regulatory - Bulgaria for example has extremely restrictive laws on treasure hunting (not allowed) and objects that are pre-1800 have to be registered with museums and certified by Museum experts as not being part of Bulgarian cultural heritage. This makes collecting the early Ottoman period either very complicated, or clandestine even, and so treasure hunter finds or objects in private collections are never published or even shared on the internet. I suspect other Balkan countries have similar regulations, which are based on good intentions but ultimately do not eliminate the looting problem and actually contribute to loss of knowledge and history, rather than their preservation.
3. Bias in what specimens get preserved, resulting in a general lack of early Ottoman Arms, especially munition grade ones. The earliest yataghans we have are those made in court workshops in Constantinople, for sultans and grand viziers. Whatever the rank and file carried has not survived, and generally only very special and important swords from that period were preserved, the more mundane examples discarded and recycled. When it comes to late 17th, early 18th century Ottoman arms there are possibly more of them in European collections, taken as trophies after the Second Siege of Vienna and the subsequent Holy League advance than in the collection of the Askeri for example. Even when it comes to sultans' swords, the ones that remain date from the mid 15th century at the earliest, the previous ones lost. It is not dissimilar to the way a lot of late medieval European swords were preserved in the Alexandria arsenal as opposed to European collections. Collecting was mostly limited to trophies, and during the 15th and early 16th centuries when the Ottomans were winning the battles, there were not any Ottoman trophies to collect. When it comes to Balkan museums, those collections tend to have a lot of 19th and 18th century material, but very little Ottoman arms from the prior centuries.

TL;DR: The yataghan is a long knife, which may have developed from antique forward curved blade forms in the Balkans as a result of Ottoman restrictions on other arms. Due to a variety of factors, there are very few 15th and 16th century examples in existence, and finding archaeological material to support and illustrate that theory is going to be very difficult.

[gp]

Some more info

https://x-legio.com/en/wiki/sica

and visualisation

[gp]

hereby the overview of all the different and yet so similar weapons.
To make it more interesting or confusing; the last 2 pics are from Iberian arms which do look like the Balkan ones....

[Ian]

gp, those links are not clickable. Did you mean to upload the actual pictures? Something not quite right here.

[gp]

Originally Posted by Ian

gp, those links are not clickable. Did you mean to upload the actual pictures? Something not quite right here.

The list of post 21 is the actual description of the pics in post 20.
My apologies for the misunderstanding.
The first 3 are Celts,followed by some Dacians, Greek, items found in Romania and Bulgaria and last 2 from Iberia.

I agree with Teodor there must be a link between these swords , long daggers of 2500 years ago in that area with the ones from the 16 to19 century….
The visual “likeness” is a strong indicatian, also since the Turkish source confirms it to a certain level.
Although “ the transfer” mentioned in. #2 of the above link from the Turkish publication might be open for discussion (or perhaps a little bias ?).

Nevertheless the resemblance in such a small region and the interaction between the peoples in those days might be a strong indication for these old weapons to be “forebearers” of the yataghan. This is something that needs to be investigated by scolars further. A matter which requires an international approach which was not that much possible due to the geopolitical situation in the last century.

[TVV]

Thank you for posting some examples of ancient weapons from the Balkans, GP - they really help illustrate the forms that existed in these lands in antiquity. The ones from Varna with the Rayed Sun/Spoked Wheel symbol are fascinating in the similarity of those markings to the most commonly found markings on shepherds' knives from the 19th century. Solar symbols can be fairly universal and it may just be a coincidence, yet the resemblance is striking.






Finally, I was able to find a picture of some knives excavated at Tsarevets fortress in Veliko Tarnovo. Those are some of the few medieval knives we have that we can at least date approximately, in this case to the 12th - 14th centuries, and definitely pre-Ottoman invasion. One of them has a blade that looks very much like a sika blade. I have been told there are other ones, dated similarly or even earlier in various regional museums in Bulgaria, but I have no pictures, so it may or may not be true.

[gp]

what a beautiful and most interesting place Tarnovgrad!

https://www.tsarevets.eu/en/index.html
https://lakshmisharath.com/veliko-tarnovo-bulgaria/

certainly worth a visit !