Thoughts on Madura Kris

G. Mansfield · 19th November 2024, 10:38 PM

I received in this Madura Kris recently. I am guessing it dates from the late 19th to early 20th century, not entirely old. It has an intricately carved donoriko ivory hilt with a rich dark orange patina. Carved with floral and lotus motifs. On the inside is a horse spreading its wings characterized by a massive upper section. I am assuming the legendary winged horse Jaran Semberani, also known as Kuda Panoleh, which was the emblem of the Madurese Sultan of Sumenep. The reverse outside section may be an 8 spoked cakra. It has a brass mendak with beaded edges holding four red (ruby?) and four white (diamond?) stones. I am unsure if the stones are glass or semi-precious, but they do look old and have a rough cut to them.
The blade is double- edged iron- nickel with high contrast pamor wavy blade and looks to be 13 luk.

The sheath is not the original sheath as it does not fit but was included in the sale. It is of a polished exotic wood, possibly a burl teak(?), with a white metal pendok. The front is extensively chased in birds, foliage and numerous designs.

The question that I have is, the blade does not show much age to it, is it a newer blade or original to the dress? Cleaned? It does seem to be a good quality blade but does not have the patina like other kris daggers that I own. However, the other kris daggers that I have are much older. What are your thoughts on the blade in relation to the rest? As the sheath does not fit properly, is the sheath in Madura style or East Jawa? Could the sheath have been for the original blade or has it been changed at some point? I would like to hear your thoughts and anything else that you can tell me about this piece.

-Geoffrey

G. Mansfield · 19th November 2024, 10:40 PM

More Photos..

Sajen · 20th November 2024, 01:42 PM

Hello Geoffrey,

Only the beautiful handle is of Madura origin. The scabbard is of Central Javanese origin and old, in the Jogya gayaman style as is the nice pendok.
I am unsure if the blade is indeed Karmadikan, it looks fairly old to my eyes and I guess as well a Central Javanese origin. So only the handle is Madurese IMO. I guess that others will chime in and it could be that there are other opinions about the blade!

Regards,
Detlef

David · 20th November 2024, 05:50 PM

Well, i think this is a lovely keris. I agree with Detlef that the wrongko and pendok are Yogyakarta, but i am not so sure on the blade, which is a bit confusing to me. It does seem like a nicely crafted blade, but frankly the greneng seems a bit of a chaotic mess. I would think that if this were an older blade, considering the quality of the rest of the work, that they would have cut a more accurate greneng. When we turn the photo upside down for a proper reading orientation, the gandik does slant in rather sharply which an indication of a Madurese style. So could this be a karmardian blade made in Madura by a skilled smith who just didn't have the knowledge to cut a proper ron dha?
The ivory donoriko hilt is beautiful and has the colour of a caramel confection. You have identified the winged horse as "Jaran Semberani", but i believe Kuda Sembrani is how it is generally recognized. However, the winged horse of Madura that is usually associated with the Regional Emblem of Sumenup is known as Si Mega. Centainly these are related mythologies that stem from Arabic traditions.

"Another symbol we meet in Madurese heraldry is the winged horse (Pegasus in Western terminology). The winged horse is mentioned in the story of Joko tolè, son of the Putri (princess) Kuning, who was a grandchild of Pangeran Bukabu of Sumenep. Joko tolè and his brother Joko wedi had been conceived by way of a dream encounter between Putri Kuning and their father Adipoday. While journeying to Majapahit to assist his stepfather named Empu Kelleng, Joko tolè met with his uncle, Adirasa, who gave him the flying horse Si Mega and a whip, both of which had been entrusted to him by Adipoday. The winged horse Si Mega is still the regional emblem of Sumenep. The whip, too, is one of Madura’s well known souvenirs, and the names Jokotole and Putri Kuning (Madurese: ‘Pottre Koneng’) can be found on the ferry boats which run between Surabaya and the Madurese port of Kamal.
The Indonesian winged horse is of Persian origin and is probably the emblem of the Master of the Horses (also known in the Roman Empire as the Magister Equitum). This would mean that a prince of Sumenep at a time held the office of Master of the Horses or that the Sumenep Dynasty held the office as a hereditary fief (within a Mataram or Dutch military organization)."

I hope the hilt has not been glued in place. It should be rotated 180 degrees for a proper orientation. I would need better shots of the mendhak to make any guessed on the stones. They could be real stones, but it's unlikely they would be diamonds and rubies. Possibly clear quartz and garnet. But glass is also not unlikely.

A. G. Maisey · 20th November 2024, 08:12 PM

Nothing to add to any of that.

Kuda is Indonesian for "horse"

Jaran is Javanese (ngoko - low level) for "horse", other words for "horse" in Javanese are "kapal" (krama - high level) & "titihan" (krama inggil- very elevated, it actually means "that which is ridden", so by being indirect or obscure we are being polite)

David · 21st November 2024, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Nothing to add to any of that.

Kuda is Indonesian for "horse"

Jaran is Javanese (ngoko - low level) for "horse", other words for "horse" in Javanese are "kapal" (krama - high level) & "titihan" (krama inggil- very elevated, it actually means "that which is ridden", so by being indirect or obscure we are being polite)

Thanks for the language lesson. The Javanese language is both rich and complex with its hierarchal levels of speech. Beyond that, do you know whether Si Mega a name used specifically for the flying horse attached to the Regional Emblem of Sumenup or is it also correct to refer to this legendary creature as Kuda Sembrani? Si Mega is the name i most often encounter when it is associated with the Sumemup.

A. G. Maisey · 21st November 2024, 11:49 PM

I don't know if we're dealing with Madurese or Javanese when we address the term "Si Mega".

In Javanese "si" is used as an honorific, or indicator that one is speaking to or with a person with whom one is on close terms, an intimate relationship, not necessarily in a sexual sense.

In Javanese "mega" means "cloud" in literary usage.

So Si Mega is a flying horse?

I believe we might be able to see the relationship there.

As to what is correct, I think that would probably be situational. I am not familiar with the Madurese language, nor do I have an in depth understanding of Madurese mores.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd November 2024, 12:06 PM

This reference to "Si Mega", has been itching in the back of my mind all day.

It comes down to what language the term is used in. I said "Javanese or Madurese", but I forgot about Indonesian.

"Si" exists in BI too, and has a similar meaning to the Javanese meaning, ie, it involves a close relationship.

So really, to use "Si Mega" in either Javanese or BI as a usual form of reference does to me seem a bit unusual.

There is another word "ki" which is used as a term of respect, usually applied to religious scholars but can be used for others who deserve respect. I would have thought that"Ki Mega" might have been more appropriate than "Si Mega" if we were using either BI or Javanese --- but then again, I'm not a native speaker of either language, so it is easy to be wrong.

The word "ki" is a contraction of kiai (kyai), both words are used in the same way.

As it happens I have a distant relative who was born & grew up in Madura, she moved to Jawa when she was married, but she is Madurese at heart. I rang her earlier today & ran my ideas about si & ki & kiai past her. She tells me that in Madura the word "si" is used in the same way that the word "ki" is used in Javanese & BI.

So when somebody refers to "Si Mega" that person is actually using an honorific of respect, it is not a use of an honorific inferring intimacy.

Using language correctly has a lot of traps & lack of fluency in any language can cause misunderstandings, sometimes regrettable.

David · 23rd November 2024, 04:24 PM

All i know is that it is the name i have encountered on many occasions, though i cannot speak to its accuracy.

https://www.hubert-herald.nl/IndoMadura.htm

https://www.eastjava.com/books/madura/html/hisleg.html

https://www.taman-indonesia.nl/2022-...jyNM6T_k6gTsNx

https://jawatimuran-wordpress-com.tr...n&_x_tr_pto=sc

G. Mansfield · 23rd November 2024, 04:52 PM

Thanks everyone for the helpful information. I have updated my notes on this particular piece in the catalog. Luckily the hilt is not glued. It has a fabric placed underneath it. I gave it a gentle tight twist to rotate it 180 degrees to its proper orientation without trouble. I also took close ups of the mendok in order to try to get a better vierw of the stones.

Geoffrey

A. G. Maisey · 23rd November 2024, 09:26 PM

The stones in the mendak will be yakut (rose cut rock crystal) and mirah ; the "mirah" is a bit of a twister because it can be understood as either "ruby" or simply "red". It is most likely that the red stones are garnet.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd November 2024, 09:47 PM

Yes David I understand that you are repeating what you have seen in various sources, I've never seen those sources, & I do not read the social media type keris "discussions". I do not have your depth of knowledge of these other sources.

With my first post on language I was attempting to respond to your question as to the meaning of "Si Mega", but I was thinking in Javanese terms and the response I gave was incorrect.

My second post was not intended to be any sort of lesson, it was simply a correction of my previous error.

So when somebody who is using BI or Javanese or English or French uses "Si Mega" to refer to the Sumenep winged horse, that person has lifted the entire term from Madurese and not translated it into Javanese, or Bi, or any other language. This can be confusing I believe where the use of "si" rather than "ki" is understood in a different way in BI & Javanese than it is understood in Madurese.

We both know that there are multiple names that can be used for this winged horse, as to which is correct, I believe that would be contextual, in other words, the name used would be in accord with the way in which the mention of the winged horse occurred. Taking into account the peculiarities of the languages concerned, it would probably be incorrect to use just one term for the winged horse in all contexts.

David · 25th November 2024, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

We both know that there are multiple names that can be used for this winged horse, as to which is correct, I believe that would be contextual, in other words, the name used would be in accord with the way in which the mention of the winged horse occurred. Taking into account the peculiarities of the languages concerned, it would probably be incorrect to use just one term for the winged horse in all contexts.

I guess what i am trying to figure out here is if Si Mega and Kuda Sembrani refer to the SAME mythological flying horse or if the idea of a flying horse appears in more than one legend. My understanding at this point is the Kuda Sembrani is a Javanese legend and that Si Mega is a Madurese one. So are we taking about the same specific creature? If flying horses exist in the mythology it would not be out of the question that there be more than just one.

A. G. Maisey · 25th November 2024, 08:41 PM

My understanding is this, and my understanding could well be wrong, it has been formed from comments & the opinions of other people over a long period of time, it is not something i have ever researched.

Kuda Sembrani is a Javanese folk tale that was drawn from Middle Eastern stories of flying horses --- apparently there are many such stories --- for example, "The Thousand Nights & One Night". Over time the original ME stories congealed into one story that gained a Javanese setting.

These ME stories probably had their origin in Al Buraq, Mohammed's flying horse, or maybe it was the other way around.

In any case, there are a lot of flying horse stories in history, Pegasus is a Euro one, even the Chinese people have a flying horse.

The Si/Ki Mega flying horse came out of the Jokotole story, & this story had elements that echoed the Kuda Sembrani tale that had come from the ME, maybe Persia.

At the present time it seems that in the public understanding all these flying horses have merged into one, so different people use different names for different horses that have all become the same horse. The whole thing seems to be very confused.

Original story:- Middle East, this story gets to Jawa & is given a Javanese character & setting, it gets integrated into the Jokotole yarn.

Probably somebody with an in depth knowledge & understanding of Javanese/Madurese folk stories could unravel all of this.

David · 25th November 2024, 11:13 PM

Thanks Alan. Correct or not that is pretty much as i was understanding all this as well. I agree that it would be an interesting thing for someone with greater knowledge of this folklore to explore.

19th November 2024, 10:38 PM	#1
G. Mansfield Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Posts: 86	Thoughts on Madura Kris I received in this Madura Kris recently. I am guessing it dates from the late 19th to early 20th century, not entirely old. It has an intricately carved donoriko ivory hilt with a rich dark orange patina. Carved with floral and lotus motifs. On the inside is a horse spreading its wings characterized by a massive upper section. I am assuming the legendary winged horse Jaran Semberani, also known as Kuda Panoleh, which was the emblem of the Madurese Sultan of Sumenep. The reverse outside section may be an 8 spoked cakra. It has a brass mendak with beaded edges holding four red (ruby?) and four white (diamond?) stones. I am unsure if the stones are glass or semi-precious, but they do look old and have a rough cut to them. The blade is double- edged iron- nickel with high contrast pamor wavy blade and looks to be 13 luk. The sheath is not the original sheath as it does not fit but was included in the sale. It is of a polished exotic wood, possibly a burl teak(?), with a white metal pendok. The front is extensively chased in birds, foliage and numerous designs. The question that I have is, the blade does not show much age to it, is it a newer blade or original to the dress? Cleaned? It does seem to be a good quality blade but does not have the patina like other kris daggers that I own. However, the other kris daggers that I have are much older. What are your thoughts on the blade in relation to the rest? As the sheath does not fit properly, is the sheath in Madura style or East Jawa? Could the sheath have been for the original blade or has it been changed at some point? I would like to hear your thoughts and anything else that you can tell me about this piece. -Geoffrey Attached Images

19th November 2024, 10:40 PM	#2
G. Mansfield Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Posts: 86	More photos More Photos.. Attached Images

20th November 2024, 05:50 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,162	Well, i think this is a lovely keris. I agree with Detlef that the wrongko and pendok are Yogyakarta, but i am not so sure on the blade, which is a bit confusing to me. It does seem like a nicely crafted blade, but frankly the greneng seems a bit of a chaotic mess. I would think that if this were an older blade, considering the quality of the rest of the work, that they would have cut a more accurate greneng. When we turn the photo upside down for a proper reading orientation, the gandik does slant in rather sharply which an indication of a Madurese style. So could this be a karmardian blade made in Madura by a skilled smith who just didn't have the knowledge to cut a proper ron dha? The ivory donoriko hilt is beautiful and has the colour of a caramel confection. You have identified the winged horse as "Jaran Semberani", but i believe Kuda Sembrani is how it is generally recognized. However, the winged horse of Madura that is usually associated with the Regional Emblem of Sumenup is known as Si Mega. Centainly these are related mythologies that stem from Arabic traditions. "Another symbol we meet in Madurese heraldry is the winged horse (Pegasus in Western terminology). The winged horse is mentioned in the story of Joko tolè, son of the Putri (princess) Kuning, who was a grandchild of Pangeran Bukabu of Sumenep. Joko tolè and his brother Joko wedi had been conceived by way of a dream encounter between Putri Kuning and their father Adipoday. While journeying to Majapahit to assist his stepfather named Empu Kelleng, Joko tolè met with his uncle, Adirasa, who gave him the flying horse Si Mega and a whip, both of which had been entrusted to him by Adipoday. The winged horse Si Mega is still the regional emblem of Sumenep. The whip, too, is one of Madura’s well known souvenirs, and the names Jokotole and Putri Kuning (Madurese: ‘Pottre Koneng’) can be found on the ferry boats which run between Surabaya and the Madurese port of Kamal. The Indonesian winged horse is of Persian origin and is probably the emblem of the Master of the Horses (also known in the Roman Empire as the Magister Equitum). This would mean that a prince of Sumenep at a time held the office of Master of the Horses or that the Sumenep Dynasty held the office as a hereditary fief (within a Mataram or Dutch military organization)." I hope the hilt has not been glued in place. It should be rotated 180 degrees for a proper orientation. I would need better shots of the mendhak to make any guessed on the stones. They could be real stones, but it's unlikely they would be diamonds and rubies. Possibly clear quartz and garnet. But glass is also not unlikely. Attached Images

20th November 2024, 08:12 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,923	Nothing to add to any of that. Kuda is Indonesian for "horse" Jaran is Javanese (ngoko - low level) for "horse", other words for "horse" in Javanese are "kapal" (krama - high level) & "titihan" (krama inggil- very elevated, it actually means "that which is ridden", so by being indirect or obscure we are being polite) Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 20th November 2024 at 08:29 PM.

23rd November 2024, 04:52 PM	#10
G. Mansfield Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Posts: 86	Thanks everyone for the helpful information. I have updated my notes on this particular piece in the catalog. Luckily the hilt is not glued. It has a fabric placed underneath it. I gave it a gentle tight twist to rotate it 180 degrees to its proper orientation without trouble. I also took close ups of the mendok in order to try to get a better vierw of the stones. Geoffrey Attached Images

20th November 2024, 01:42 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,887	Hello Geoffrey, Only the beautiful handle is of Madura origin. The scabbard is of Central Javanese origin and old, in the Jogya gayaman style as is the nice pendok. I am unsure if the blade is indeed Karmadikan, it looks fairly old to my eyes and I guess as well a Central Javanese origin. So only the handle is Madurese IMO. I guess that others will chime in and it could be that there are other opinions about the blade! Regards, Detlef

21st November 2024, 11:49 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,923	I don't know if we're dealing with Madurese or Javanese when we address the term "Si Mega". In Javanese "si" is used as an honorific, or indicator that one is speaking to or with a person with whom one is on close terms, an intimate relationship, not necessarily in a sexual sense. In Javanese "mega" means "cloud" in literary usage. So Si Mega is a flying horse? I believe we might be able to see the relationship there. As to what is correct, I think that would probably be situational. I am not familiar with the Madurese language, nor do I have an in depth understanding of Madurese mores.

23rd November 2024, 12:06 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,923	This reference to "Si Mega", has been itching in the back of my mind all day. It comes down to what language the term is used in. I said "Javanese or Madurese", but I forgot about Indonesian. "Si" exists in BI too, and has a similar meaning to the Javanese meaning, ie, it involves a close relationship. So really, to use "Si Mega" in either Javanese or BI as a usual form of reference does to me seem a bit unusual. There is another word "ki" which is used as a term of respect, usually applied to religious scholars but can be used for others who deserve respect. I would have thought that"Ki Mega" might have been more appropriate than "Si Mega" if we were using either BI or Javanese --- but then again, I'm not a native speaker of either language, so it is easy to be wrong. The word "ki" is a contraction of kiai (kyai), both words are used in the same way. As it happens I have a distant relative who was born & grew up in Madura, she moved to Jawa when she was married, but she is Madurese at heart. I rang her earlier today & ran my ideas about si & ki & kiai past her. She tells me that in Madura the word "si" is used in the same way that the word "ki" is used in Javanese & BI. So when somebody refers to "Si Mega" that person is actually using an honorific of respect, it is not a use of an honorific inferring intimacy. Using language correctly has a lot of traps & lack of fluency in any language can cause misunderstandings, sometimes regrettable.

23rd November 2024, 04:24 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,162	All i know is that it is the name i have encountered on many occasions, though i cannot speak to its accuracy. https://www.hubert-herald.nl/IndoMadura.htm https://www.eastjava.com/books/madura/html/hisleg.html https://www.taman-indonesia.nl/2022-...jyNM6T_k6gTsNx https://jawatimuran-wordpress-com.tr...n&_x_tr_pto=sc

23rd November 2024, 09:26 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,923	The stones in the mendak will be yakut (rose cut rock crystal) and mirah ; the "mirah" is a bit of a twister because it can be understood as either "ruby" or simply "red". It is most likely that the red stones are garnet.

23rd November 2024, 09:47 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,923	Yes David I understand that you are repeating what you have seen in various sources, I've never seen those sources, & I do not read the social media type keris "discussions". I do not have your depth of knowledge of these other sources. With my first post on language I was attempting to respond to your question as to the meaning of "Si Mega", but I was thinking in Javanese terms and the response I gave was incorrect. My second post was not intended to be any sort of lesson, it was simply a correction of my previous error. So when somebody who is using BI or Javanese or English or French uses "Si Mega" to refer to the Sumenep winged horse, that person has lifted the entire term from Madurese and not translated it into Javanese, or Bi, or any other language. This can be confusing I believe where the use of "si" rather than "ki" is understood in a different way in BI & Javanese than it is understood in Madurese. We both know that there are multiple names that can be used for this winged horse, as to which is correct, I believe that would be contextual, in other words, the name used would be in accord with the way in which the mention of the winged horse occurred. Taking into account the peculiarities of the languages concerned, it would probably be incorrect to use just one term for the winged horse in all contexts.

25th November 2024, 08:41 PM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,923	My understanding is this, and my understanding could well be wrong, it has been formed from comments & the opinions of other people over a long period of time, it is not something i have ever researched. Kuda Sembrani is a Javanese folk tale that was drawn from Middle Eastern stories of flying horses --- apparently there are many such stories --- for example, "The Thousand Nights & One Night". Over time the original ME stories congealed into one story that gained a Javanese setting. These ME stories probably had their origin in Al Buraq, Mohammed's flying horse, or maybe it was the other way around. In any case, there are a lot of flying horse stories in history, Pegasus is a Euro one, even the Chinese people have a flying horse. The Si/Ki Mega flying horse came out of the Jokotole story, & this story had elements that echoed the Kuda Sembrani tale that had come from the ME, maybe Persia. At the present time it seems that in the public understanding all these flying horses have merged into one, so different people use different names for different horses that have all become the same horse. The whole thing seems to be very confused. Original story:- Middle East, this story gets to Jawa & is given a Javanese character & setting, it gets integrated into the Jokotole yarn. Probably somebody with an in depth knowledge & understanding of Javanese/Madurese folk stories could unravel all of this.

25th November 2024, 11:13 PM	#15
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,162	Thanks Alan. Correct or not that is pretty much as i was understanding all this as well. I agree that it would be an interesting thing for someone with greater knowledge of this folklore to explore.