keris for comment

DhenTal · 31st January 2005, 10:08 AM

I don't think that the photos was posted by sang kris is a good piece.
How can anybody give opinion that this kriss is so beautiful ? I just look a kriss with a glamour scabbard. Kriss it self, not older than 5 yrs, but it was give some chemical so that it look so old.

And, sepang scabbard, although he told that all of scabbard are old, but I don't think so. How can the old wood can still whole until now ? Is that impossible.

Sepang · 31st January 2005, 11:37 AM

DhenTal...., would U please give me some reason about your opinion ?

Alam Shah · 31st January 2005, 01:13 PM

DhenTal wrote:
> I don't think that the photos was posted by sang kris is a good piece.

What constitute a good or bad piece? In my opinion, it may not be old but still it is a nicely built piece.

> How can anybody give opinion that this kriss is so beautiful ? I just look a
> kriss with a glamour scabbard. Kriss it self, not older than 5 yrs, but it was
> give some chemical so that it look so old.

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. It may be real/fake or new/old, it doesn't matter as much in terms of beauty. The intricity of the artwork and detailing of the ukiran deserves mention.

Dhental, if you mix in a keris community, you would know that your comment style is considered inappropriate in keris culture ethics. (Never criticise a piece in public, unless it is specifically asked for by the owner).

BluErf · 31st January 2005, 01:55 PM

But then, the truth is bitter (mostly)... and sometimes, in order to learn, one has to be knocked once or twice on the head to get things in. Hearing people say that the pieces are 'nice' or 'beautiful' does not add to long term learning.

Montino Bourbon · 31st January 2005, 02:35 PM

It's very interesting to hear the debate on whether a piece is 'real', 'genuine', 'has chi', and so forth.

Years ago, the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York aquired some Etruscan sculptures that were some of the most beautiful that anyone had ever seen. It was said of these sculptures, which included a famous head of a warrior which is still in some texts as a classic, that they had 'Clearly the Etruscan Magic"!

Years later, the Italian who had made them (!) came forward and admitted that he had made them; and being an artist as well as a freak, he had prayed over them and done ceremony before burying them, and imbued them with 'chi'.

I have seen keris made recently, including a piece made in the USA, which are outstanding, and which I am sure a rajah or a great leader in Indonesia would consider worthy of owning. I have also seen old keris which I would consider trash.

As I have said before, if I like it and I hold it in my hand, it's got plenty of chi; but I would refer you to an article called

What Makes a Weapon "Magickal"?
A Cross-Cultural Survey of Empowering Characteristics

Ruel A. Macaraeg

as for 'real' vs. 'fake' even the so-called 'experts' cannot agree on many things. Yes, there is expertise, but if you like a piece of art you like it, whether it's old or new; and new pieces are made which are equal in quality and chi to old ones. Take it from a Roman born in Rome; that which is new today becomes very soon old, and we don't have much of an idea of what previous civilizations have accomplished.

Sang Keris · 31st January 2005, 02:53 PM

no problem guys...

keep talking.. .. i wanna learn more from the expert..

well , i know that this keris will look better if the pamor is in complete condition..

hmm.. i still think this one is old..

dhental , i think an expert like you could explain to me ,which part of this keris make you think its new?

saying its a "nice or ugly " keris , is up to you.... but talking about age , u should have a reason

Sang Keris · 31st January 2005, 02:56 PM

well , bluerf..
my question is..... " wht's the pamor name"

......any idea?

Alam Shah · 31st January 2005, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montino Bourbon

As I have said before, if I like it and I hold it in my hand, it's got plenty of chi; but I would refer you to an article called

What Makes a Weapon "Magickal"?
A Cross-Cultural Survey of Empowering Characteristics
Ruel A. Macaraeg

As for imbuing a weapon with mystical elements, it can be done even on new pieces. There are 'chants', 'mantras', prayer rituals...etc, to enpower the a piece for a specific role. It could be achieved.
But I won't go further, as I'm not a learned person in this field.

There are a few good keris references books which i found helpful.
1.) Ensiklopedi Keris (Keris Encyclopedia)
- Auth: Bambang Harsrinuksmo, Pub: Jakarta : Gramedia Pustaka Utama, 2004.
- Format: Hardcover, 630 p. : ill. (some col.) ; 29 cm.
- ***** A must have primer reference. In Bahasa Indonesia.

2.) The World of the Javanese Keris
http://www.eriksedge.com/TheWorldoftheJavaneseKeris.html
- Auth: G. & B.Solyom, Pub: East West Centre Pub., Honolulu 1978
- ISBN 0-9620340-0-2
- ***** A must have primer.

3.) The Kris: Mystic Weapon of the Malay World,
- Auth: Edward Frey, Pub: Oxford University Press, Oxford 1989 (2nd Edition)
- ISBN 0-19-588906-1
- ***** Another very good primer with lots of good info but lack illustration.

4.) The Kris: an earthly approach to a cosmic symbol
- Auth: David van Duuren.
- Format: Hardcover, 95 pages, Published: 1998, Netherlands, 1st Edition
- ISBN: 907318732X
- ***** Another good primer with good color photos.
About This Book
Scholarly account of the kris - its distribution, history, function and
production. The significance of the design and motifs on the blade, hilt and
sheath and the regional variations are all described with the aid of illustrations from the Royal Tropical Institute Collection, Amsterdam.
- - -
There are other books, too. For a beginner like me, these books helps to build foundational knowledge regarding keris.

Andrew · 31st January 2005, 04:23 PM

Great post, Prime. Thank you for providing those titles.

Rick · 31st January 2005, 04:25 PM

Prime,
I see that you have left out Tammens works .
Is there a reason for this ?

I have found them to be quite helpful .

Alam Shah · 31st January 2005, 04:41 PM

Rick,
I've heard of Tammens's work, but have not acquired any of his books.
Difficult to find.

- De Kris: Magic Relic of Old Indonesia, Vol. I, II, & III,
- G.J.F.J. Tammens
- Privé uitgave van G.J.F.J.Tammens
- Eelderwolde I: 1991, II: 1993, III: 1994
- ISBN 90-9004342-X, 90-9006237-8, 90-802185-1-0

If you know where I can get these books, I'll appreciate it.

31st January 2005, 01:13 PM	#3
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	DhenTal wrote: > I don't think that the photos was posted by sang kris is a good piece. What constitute a good or bad piece? In my opinion, it may not be old but still it is a nicely built piece. > How can anybody give opinion that this kriss is so beautiful ? I just look a > kriss with a glamour scabbard. Kriss it self, not older than 5 yrs, but it was > give some chemical so that it look so old. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. It may be real/fake or new/old, it doesn't matter as much in terms of beauty. The intricity of the artwork and detailing of the ukiran deserves mention. Dhental, if you mix in a keris community, you would know that your comment style is considered inappropriate in keris culture ethics. (Never criticise a piece in public, unless it is specifically asked for by the owner). Last edited by prime; 1st February 2005 at 07:29 AM. Reason: grammar

31st January 2005, 02:35 PM	#5
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	'genuine-ness' and 'power' are relative It's very interesting to hear the debate on whether a piece is 'real', 'genuine', 'has chi', and so forth. Years ago, the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York aquired some Etruscan sculptures that were some of the most beautiful that anyone had ever seen. It was said of these sculptures, which included a famous head of a warrior which is still in some texts as a classic, that they had 'Clearly the Etruscan Magic"! Years later, the Italian who had made them (!) came forward and admitted that he had made them; and being an artist as well as a freak, he had prayed over them and done ceremony before burying them, and imbued them with 'chi'. I have seen keris made recently, including a piece made in the USA, which are outstanding, and which I am sure a rajah or a great leader in Indonesia would consider worthy of owning. I have also seen old keris which I would consider trash. As I have said before, if I like it and I hold it in my hand, it's got plenty of chi; but I would refer you to an article called What Makes a Weapon "Magickal"? A Cross-Cultural Survey of Empowering Characteristics Ruel A. Macaraeg as for 'real' vs. 'fake' even the so-called 'experts' cannot agree on many things. Yes, there is expertise, but if you like a piece of art you like it, whether it's old or new; and new pieces are made which are equal in quality and chi to old ones. Take it from a Roman born in Rome; that which is new today becomes very soon old, and we don't have much of an idea of what previous civilizations have accomplished.

31st January 2005, 02:53 PM	#6
Sang Keris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Indonesia Posts: 46	no problem guys... keep talking.. .. i wanna learn more from the expert.. well , i know that this keris will look better if the pamor is in complete condition.. hmm.. i still think this one is old.. dhental , i think an expert like you could explain to me ,which part of this keris make you think its new? saying its a "nice or ugly " keris , is up to you.... but talking about age , u should have a reason Last edited by Sang Keris; 31st January 2005 at 03:31 PM.

31st January 2005, 10:08 AM	#1
DhenTal Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 20	I don't think that the photos was posted by sang kris is a good piece. How can anybody give opinion that this kriss is so beautiful ? I just look a kriss with a glamour scabbard. Kriss it self, not older than 5 yrs, but it was give some chemical so that it look so old. And, sepang scabbard, although he told that all of scabbard are old, but I don't think so. How can the old wood can still whole until now ? Is that impossible.

31st January 2005, 11:37 AM	#2
Sepang Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 33	DhenTal...., would U please give me some reason about your opinion ?

31st January 2005, 01:55 PM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	But then, the truth is bitter (mostly)... and sometimes, in order to learn, one has to be knocked once or twice on the head to get things in. Hearing people say that the pieces are 'nice' or 'beautiful' does not add to long term learning.

31st January 2005, 02:56 PM	#7
Sang Keris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Indonesia Posts: 46	well , bluerf.. my question is..... " wht's the pamor name" ......any idea?

31st January 2005, 04:23 PM	#9
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Great post, Prime. Thank you for providing those titles.

31st January 2005, 04:25 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Prime, I see that you have left out Tammens works . Is there a reason for this ? I have found them to be quite helpful .

31st January 2005, 04:41 PM	#11
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Rick, I've heard of Tammens's work, but have not acquired any of his books. Difficult to find. - De Kris: Magic Relic of Old Indonesia, Vol. I, II, & III, - G.J.F.J. Tammens - Privé uitgave van G.J.F.J.Tammens - Eelderwolde I: 1991, II: 1993, III: 1994 - ISBN 90-9004342-X, 90-9006237-8, 90-802185-1-0 If you know where I can get these books, I'll appreciate it.