Bugis or Sumatran?

[Sajen]

Want to read your opinion, is this keris Bugis or Sumatran? 37,5 cm complete.

[David]

Can't it be both?
I certainly see this blade as having a Bugis type profile, but as i know you already know, the Bugis got around the archipelago quite a bit. When you say "Bugis" where are you expecting the blade to made?

[Sajen]

Hello David,

Yes for sure! But I remember a thread where Dave Henkel has shown differents but I can't find it. When I remember correct the handle form and the gandar and atasan form can differ!?

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

For me, culturally Bugis, but as to geographic point of blade and dress origin, I am unable to form an opinion.

[Gustav]

The sheath looks like a typical Sulawesi Bugis sheath, hilt most likely is Sulawesi, blade looks a bit more like Sumatran Bugis, but, if original to sheath, likely is Sulawesi too. Well, the fit is not the most ideal one.

[Sajen]

Thank you gents!

BTW, have found the thread, by the classics!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...+keris+comment

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Thank you gents!

BTW, have found the thread, by the classics!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...+keris+comment

Regards,
Detlef

Glad you found the thread. Dave is certainly a great source of information about these keris, though you can read there that even he admits to some confusion at times.
It seems to me that part of the confusion comes from defining exactly what we mean when we ask about the origin of any keris. Are we talking about the over all package, just the dress or just the blade? Certainly many of the blades shown in that thread are in Bugis dress, but with blades that are clearly not Bugis. So do we call that a Bugis keris regardless of the origin of the blade? If it was carried by an ethnic Bugis i would imagine so.
Another confusion arises over what we mean when we ask is something is Bugis. Bugis from the origin of the Bugis people or do we mean culturally Bugis, which can mean it was made in any number of places. So again, i have to say that your original question, is this keris Bugis or Sumatran, doesn't really make sense to me. There are Bugis people all over the archipelago, as i am sure you know. Frankly, while i can certainly identify both your blade and the dress as Bugis i am hard pressed to determine if either are Sulawesi Bugis or Sumatran Bugis. But i would say that it is certainly a Bugis keris.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, what I was taught is that the keris is the blade, the other components, the hilt, mendak, wrongko are just dress items. Javanese people get around the problem of referring to the complete dressed blade as the keris by having different words to refer to that complete dressed blade, words such as "dhuwung", "wangkingan" & so forth. Or they might refer to a "complete keris", or again if referring only to the keris blade they will name it as the blade, ie "bilah" or "wilah".

When the blade itself is classified the Javanese people use the tangguh system, and the classifications within that system can refer to historic point of origin, or geographic point of origin, or to the maker.

When I try to classify a Bugis blade I will usually refer to it in terms of "culturally Bugis", meaning that it is a keris blade that has been made in the style favoured by the Bugis people, or I will refer to it as "Bugis" & if at all possible name the attributed geographic point of origin. I see this as the rational way to approach the matter, simply because of the Bugis diaspora.

However, my knowledge of Bugis keris blades & keris dress is slight, & I often need to ask somebody whose knowledge of the Bugis keris is vastly more than my own. This in itself is a bit of a problem, because the only book that I know of that deals specifically with the Bugis keris is "Senjata Pusaka Bugis", and that lists virtually every keris in it as "South Sulawesi", even though there are keris blades shown, and perhaps dress styles as well, that vary widely from the styles accepted by knowledgeable collectors & students of the keris as having a South Sulawesi origin.

Bugis keris are a bit of a problem when it comes to giving a supportable geographic point of origin.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, what I was taught is that the keris is the blade, the other components, the hilt, mendak, wrongko are just dress items. Javanese people get around the problem of referring to the complete dressed blade as the keris by having different words to refer to that complete dressed blade, words such as "dhuwung", "wangkingan" & so forth. Or they might refer to a "complete keris", or again if referring only to the keris blade they will name it as the blade, ie "bilah" or "wilah".

When the blade itself is classified the Javanese people use the tangguh system, and the classifications within that system can refer to historic point of origin, or geographic point of origin, or to the maker.

When I try to classify a Bugis blade I will usually refer to it in terms of "culturally Bugis", meaning that it is a keris blade that has been made in the style favoured by the Bugis people, or I will refer to it as "Bugis" & if at all possible name the attributed geographic point of origin. I see this as the rational way to approach the matter, simply because of the Bugis diaspora.

However, my knowledge of Bugis keris blades & keris dress is slight, & I often need to ask somebody whose knowledge of the Bugis keris is vastly more than my own. This in itself is a bit of a problem, because the only book that I know of that deals specifically with the Bugis keris is "Senjata Pusaka Bugis", and that lists virtually every keris in it as "South Sulawesi", even though there are keris blades shown, and perhaps dress styles as well, that vary widely from the styles accepted by knowledgeable collectors & students of the keris as having a South Sulawesi origin.

Bugis keris are a bit of a problem when it comes to giving a supportable geographic point of origin.

Thanks Alan. I do understand all that, but for the most part i am not conversing with Javanese people, but rather Western collectors. We are unfortunately tend not to be so clear in our intent when we are trying to identify a keris so i find it wise to ask whether a person is referring to the wilah alone or the full package.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

Glad you found the thread. Dave is certainly a great source of information about these keris, though you can read there that even he admits to some confusion at times.
It seems to me that part of the confusion comes from defining exactly what we mean when we ask about the origin of any keris. Are we talking about the over all package, just the dress or just the blade? Certainly many of the blades shown in that thread are in Bugis dress, but with blades that are clearly not Bugis. So do we call that a Bugis keris regardless of the origin of the blade? If it was carried by an ethnic Bugis i would imagine so.
Another confusion arises over what we mean when we ask is something is Bugis. Bugis from the origin of the Bugis people or do we mean culturally Bugis, which can mean it was made in any number of places. So again, i have to say that your original question, is this keris Bugis or Sumatran, doesn't really make sense to me. There are Bugis people all over the archipelago, as i am sure you know. Frankly, while i can certainly identify both your blade and the dress as Bugis i am hard pressed to determine if either are Sulawesi Bugis or Sumatran Bugis. But i would say that it is certainly a Bugis keris.

Hello David,

Sorry that my question was worded inaccurately, I vow to get better!
We generally have this problem with many keris which are shown here. Is a Java blade in a Bali dress a Java keris or a Balinese? Is a Central Javanese in a Madura/East Java dress Central or East Javanese, we have seen this many times. I think it's the complete package when we classify keris with a description where the blade may have its origin.
But apparently all the people who contributed to this thread understand what I want to know!
And when you reread the classic thread you will find that Bugis influenced coastal Sumatra keris dresses differ from "pure" Bugis keris dresses.I just was a little bit unsure where the keris in question may have its origin.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Yep, I sometimes find it necessary to do the same thing --- and not only with Western World collectors, clarification is sometimes needed with people from Jawa & Bali.

When I think about it, this need for clarification applies in a lot of fields, not just keris. In speaking & writing I think we're all guilty of being a bit imprecise at times.

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello David,

Sorry that my question was worded inaccurately, I vow to get better!
We generally have this problem with many keris which are shown here. Is a Java blade in a Bali dress a Java keris or a Balinese? Is a Central Javanese in a Madura/East Java dress Central or East Javanese, we have seen this many times. I think it's the complete package when we classify keris with a description where the blade may have its origin.
But apparently all the people who contributed to this thread understand what I want to know!
And when you reread the classic thread you will find that Bugis influenced coastal Sumatra keris dresses differ from "pure" Bugis keris dresses.I just was a little bit unsure where the keris in question may have its origin.

Regards,
Detlef

So you wanted to know if this was a Sulawesi Bugis keris or a Sumatran Bugis keris? Well why didn't you just say so. LOL!
I don't know...