Two dha, Birmese and Laotian Hmong Montagnard?

[werecow]

Thanks for your input Detlef! I'm gonna enjoy it a bit first but maybe a few years down the road.

Some follow up questions:

Is the Hmong / Laos attribution indeed the most likely one?

Is there anything known about the handling of the Montagnard ones? It has the proportions of small polearms but feels more like a sword, which puts these in a sort of strange and intriguing no man's land for me. This one is light enough for single handed use, but presumably that is not how they were wielded, as the long grip makes it somewhat awkward.
If anyone knows of a youtube video that shows their use it would be instructive.

[Iain]

The so-called montagnard dha is not associated with the Hmong. It is from southern Laos, northern Cambodia and the border areas of Vietnam. Commonly the style is called after Attapeu in Laos which is a major regional center for both Lao and hill tribes.

This example is a hill tribes variant, the long handle is not for two handed use but rather a reflection of the multi purpose use of this sword. The long handle serves for common tasks like harvesting hard to reach fruit etc. They are used as single handed swords in combat.

The pattern of the casting is found also on shorter hilted swords.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Iain

The so-called montagnard dha is not associated with the Hmong. It is from southern Laos, northern Cambodia and the border areas of Vietnam. Commonly the style is called after Attapeu in Laos which is a major regional center for both Lao and hill tribes.

This example is a hill tribes variant, the long handle is not for two handed use but rather a reflection of the multi purpose use of this sword. The long handle serves for common tasks like harvesting hard to reach fruit etc. They are used as single handed swords in combat.

The pattern of the casting is found also on shorter hilted swords.

Thanks Iain. I was wondering whether these might double as agricultural tools but the fact that it has a (minimal) handguard of sorts threw me. I'll have a look at the forums for other forms of dha with similar decorative casting. Maybe the second from the top and bottom swords in this post of yours?



EDIT: Closeup from here



Also the swirling patterns look a lot like this post by Detlef in the first thread:



Interesting that you say the Montagnard dha swords are not associated with the Hmong. The seller mentioned that he lacked expertise on this region but that he had made the determination based on what he read on these forums. I think the Hmong association was specifically based on #3 in this post by Ian (and possibly corroborated by this post by Jim).

Originally Posted by Sajen

Here you go! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cck_02cUUc8

Thanks Detlef! I feel like that guy's wrists move in ways that mine can't. If I try a moulinet with a roughly equally sized broomstick I end up hitting myself in the armpit (with the "grip" side, but still) so probably best not to try it with the actual sword lest I kill myself accidentally. Or worse, hit one of my swords! Probably doesn't help that I have maybe half a meter of space on each side of me.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by werecow

Thanks Iain. I was wondering whether these might double as agricultural tools but the fact that it has a (minimal) handguard of sorts threw me. I'll have a look at the forums for other forms of dha with similar decorative casting. Maybe the second from the top and bottom swords in this post of yours?

The fully cast handle ones are weapons. The long handle ones are both. You have to keep in mind that in this part of the world even today you don't go out in the hills without at least a large knife/machete. So some of these are true daily carry swords/tools. Regarding the fully cast hilt examples I'll PM you a couple articles as I don't want to spam the forum with my own links.

EDIT: Closeup from here



Also the swirling patterns look a lot like this post by Detlef in the first thread:

There are several varieties of casting patterns found on these. The cross hatched pattern seems, in my experience, to be a more recent style compared to the intricate swirls and whorls on some of the very old ones I have.

Interesting that you say the Montagnard dha swords are not associated with the Hmong. The seller mentioned that he lacked expertise on this region but that he had made the determination based on what he read on these forums. I think the Hmong association was specifically based on #3 in this post by Ian (and possibly corroborated by this post by Jim).

This is part of the problem of labelling a type with a label like montagnard which I quite dislike. Yes the Hmong use swords but as far as I'm aware they are not associated with this type. Rather I have seen Hmong with rather long knives/short swords with short handles with a slight downwards curve. Of course some may use other types, I can't claim an extensive knowledge of all Hmong groups in the region.

There are a multitude of groups in this area like the Bravo, Katu, Ta Oi etc. compounding the issue of attempting to label everything by tribe is that weapons were traded, including blades, castings might be acquired from a different village, town or craftsman as well. Because of this I prefer regional attributions.

Thanks Detlef! I feel like that guy's wrists move in ways that mine can't. If I try a moulinet with a roughly equally sized broomstick I end up hitting myself in the armpit (with the "grip" side, but still) so probably best not to try it with the actual sword lest I kill myself accidentally. Or worse, hit one of my swords! Probably doesn't help that I have maybe half a meter of space on each side of me.

[/Quote]

You aren't alone I'm finding the long handles a bit awkward.😉

[Ian]

Interesting that you say the Montagnard dha swords are not associated with the Hmong. The seller mentioned that he lacked expertise on this region but that he had made the determination based on what he read on these forums. I think the Hmong association was specifically based on #3 in this post by Ian (and possibly corroborated by this post by Jim).

I have to agree that there are few Hmong in southern Laos, as noted by Iain. They are concentrated in the northern half of the country. The Hmong attribution for the sword in question was given to me by an English dealer who professed considerable knowledge of dha/daab. This was before I established some reliable contacts among the Hmong who had immigrated to the U.S. and live in Minnesota. I don't know the tribal attribution for that sword.

"Montagnard" is a French colonial word, simply meaning "mountain people." The Hmong are "mountain people" who live mainly along the western border of what is now Vietnam. Their range abuts Laos and Cambodia, and may extends into Yunnan. As Iain notes, there are many different hill tribes in this area.

[werecow]

Thanks Ian and Iain, that clears things up for me.

And thanks for the articles Iain. I wouldn't consider it spamming at all, considering there is a lot of relevant information in them!

As a final question, can anything be said about the age of both these swords? They were both listed as "late 19th century", which may well be correct, but that often seems to be the dating equivalent of "shrug?" in the antique sword world.

[JeffS]

I have two Montagnard dha said to be collected in the Central Highlands between 1967 and 1969 by a US serviceman active in that area.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by werecow

Thanks Ian and Iain, that clears things up for me.

And thanks for the articles Iain. I wouldn't consider it spamming at all, considering there is a lot of relevant information in them!

As a final question, can anything be said about the age of both these swords? They were both listed as "late 19th century", which may well be correct, but that often seems to be the dating equivalent of "shrug?" in the antique sword world.

Late 19th century is most likely correct although both could be early 20th century as well.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by werecow

If anyone knows of a youtube video that shows their use it would be instructive.

Here you go! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cck_02cUUc8