Upper class Datu ivory, swassa, and silver barong

[Battara]

Thank you gents.

In scabbard the overall length is 27 3/4 inches or 69.38 cm.

I would say 19c. Early.....hmm. Perhaps. Blade is large though (18 inches or 45 cm). I would not place this as an early piece like 18c or early 19c. Maybe mid 19c or later, but not 20c. Early barong blades I thought were smaller, kind of following the kris/sundang examples in the 18c to early 19c.

Buckshot - never occurred to me. It would fit the section and it is round and does not go through the other side.

Very helpful. Not much info on this class of barong, but with materials it goes to a much more prominent datu. I have a picture of the Sultan of Sulu at the turn of the 20c with a barong that looks a lot like this one, but unfortunately is black and white, and fuzzy. I first thought this might be a sultan class barong, but I can't find any more info or attribution to a sultan class, so I must hold this as only a possible hypothesis with little proof.

Still this was on my wish list. I love my bling.

[Ian]

Yes, that length would be long for an early 19th C barung. Perhaps second half of the 19th C, as you pointed out.

The amount of swassa on the hilt is less than I would expect for a Sultan. Perhaps for a member of the Royal House or a high level official, such as a panglima.

[xasterix]

If I may add a bit of trivia- any member of the nobility may have carried this; I usually call such as "nobility blades." Moro blades with expensive materials and high craftmanship may be commissioned by any member of the nobility- and this was not limited to those with rank in royalty or military, but also to affluent members of the populace- merchants, shopkeepers- and those invaluable to the community, such as council of elders, priests, sorcerers, even highly successful and senior blacksmiths and artisans.

I've been told by Moro elders that "Datu-class" and "Sultan-class" aren't accurate in describing these weapons, as many of these were owned not by the Datu nor Sultan, but by other members of the nobility. It was not uncommon for non-royalty nobles to have flashier and more expensive blades than royalty. There are even oral traditions of Sulu rulers who would gift noteworthy non-nobility subjects with ivory-pommel blades, while keeping modest blades for themselves.

Certain royalty, from Datu all the way up to the Sultan, preferred to carry these modest blades,because they valued these blades' intrinsic value as their pusaka (heirloom). Then there were also Datu and Sultan who preferred foreign or modern weapons, such as sabers and guns.

Nevertheless, that's a very nice nobility barung

[Sajen]

Congrats Jose, very nice barung!

[kino]

Originally Posted by xasterix

Moro blades with expensive materials and high craftmanship may be commissioned by any member of the nobility- and this was not limited to those with rank in royalty or military, but also to affluent members of the populace- merchants, shopkeepers- and those invaluable to the community, such as council of elders, priests, sorcerers, even highly successful and senior blacksmiths and artisans.

I’ve always wondered why some ivory hilted sandata survived unscathed, all intact with clean blades, perhaps these were the ones owned by the community members other than the soldiers and raiders.

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by kino

I’ve always wondered why some ivory hilted sandata survived unscathed, all intact with clean blades, perhaps these were the ones owned by the community members other than the soldiers and raiders.

That's right sir some of these highly aesthetic blades were also gifted to foreign rulers and dignitaries, or traveled far and wide as dowries for transcontinental marriages. That would account for these blades surviving and preserved elsewhere. That's why there's always a story behind every Moro blade...more data is coming to light in the recent years, as Moro elders and culture-bearers have begun sharing and even publishing info about their ancestors' blade practices.

And the very interesting thing...is that the Luzon and Visayan peoples had their own practices as well; they also had nobility blades after all.

[kino]

Originally Posted by Battara

Buckshot - never occurred to me. It would fit the section and it is round and does not go through the other side.

More likely birdshot. I believe back then steel shot were not used, so if leadshot, would it have the velocity to damage hardened edge?

[Bob A]

Originally Posted by kino

More likely birdshot. I believe back then steel shot were not used, so if leadshot, would it have the velocity to damage hardened edge?

Steel shot has only been in use for a few decades, as environmentalists shuddered at the thought of lead being used on waterfowl, and accumukating in the muck beneath the waters.

I don't think a shotgun pellet, made of lead as it would have been in the day, would be able to punch through the blade in question.

There was a descussion a few years ago about a barong that had experienced a losing battle with a firearm. It was pointed out at the time that a lead bullet of military caliber (.38 at the time) would have destrroyed the sheath as well as not have made a clean hole through the barong. It was agreed that the weapon in question might well have been a Mauser model 1896, which fires a jacketed bullet of 7.63 mm.

(Discussed on pg 2 of this thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=mauser&page=2)

I have no idea of the measurement of Battara's damage site. I merely recouunt the tale of a somewhat similar wound.

[Battara]

Thank you for the information folks.

Xasterix I thought only nobility were allowed to wear top materials like ivory, swassa, etc.

Regarding the area of "damage" it is 2 mm in diameter. Maybe a forging bubble ?

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by Battara

Thank you for the information folks.

Xasterix I thought only nobility were allowed to wear top materials like ivory, swassa, etc.

Regarding the area of "damage" it is 2 mm in diameter. Maybe a forging bubble ?

Nobility in general yup- upper strata of Moro society, which includes the "job descriptions" I previously mentioned, not limited to royalty or military. It's important to distinguish between the two terms:

Royalty = Datu, Sultan, etc, considered as members of nobility class
Nobility class = doesn't automatically mean (or limited to) royalty; includes ranking military officers, community leaders, merchants, dignitaries, etc

Then there are oral traditions of nobility-tier blades being awarded to non-nobility, or gifted to outsiders.

[kino]

Originally Posted by Bob A

Steel shot has only been in use for a few decades, as environmentalists shuddered at the thought of lead being used on waterfowl, and accumukating in the muck beneath the waters.

I don't think a shotgun pellet, made of lead as it would have been in the day, would be able to punch through the blade in question.

Thanks Bob.

[Battara]

Thanks Xasterix.

Also very true about giving high status gifts to noted strangers, foreign dignitaries, etc.

[Battara]

By the way, this is how I originally got the piece. I etched the blade, cleaned up the hilt and took off the former "repair" tail off and did my best to repair/restore the tail.

[wildwolberine]

Originally Posted by Battara

By the way, this is how I originally got the piece. I etched the blade, cleaned up the hilt and took off the former "repair" tail off and did my best to repair/restore the tail.

Beautiful work on the tail!

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Battara

By the way, this is how I originally got the piece. I etched the blade, cleaned up the hilt and took off the former "repair" tail off and did my best to repair/restore the tail.

Honestly, I liked the blade better before the etching. This is neither a wootz, nor a pattern welded blade where the pattern of the steel has some intrinsic purpose. This is simply a laminated blade and I consider it should be kept as clean as possible and definitely not etched.

But this is my opinion...