Suggestions for care and respect of Javanese and Balinese Keris.

Mudi · 12th July 2006, 06:50 AM

My first point was that it was an animistic cultural, from which there are many culture hold-overs even to this day.

Sorry but I do not understand what you mean. In many parts of Indonesia there are still tribal culture. Do you mean Java was tribal before Islam?

Your response to Bill was that Jawa was not animistic before Islam.

Yes, Java was not animist before Islam. That is true. It was a high culture of Hindu and Buddhist.

If you give incense to a keris you can give it life again. The same is for topeng barong. We believe that if you feed keris, and then stop it can turn on you or bring bad luck.

A. G. Maisey · 12th July 2006, 09:15 AM

Pak Mudi, I most sincerely regret that I must differ from you in your opinion that Jawa was not home to an animist culture prior to the establishment of Islam.

In fact, in many respects, and in many places, Jawa is still an animist culture.

Although Indonesia is the world`s most populous Islamic nation, the truth is that only a very small percentage of people in Indonesia are devout Muslims, and only about 6,5% could be regarded as Islamic conservatives. The vast majority of people in Jawa, particularly, are Muslim KTP. Abangan.

When the nation of Indonesia was established one of the principles of its foundation was religious freedom. All were entitled to follow the religion of their choice. Regretably, the act of choice was compulsory.You could be any religion that you wished, but you could not be of no religion. The result was that a very large number of people who could not have been considered Muslim by any stretch of the imagination, opted to be identified as Muslim. The flowon from this was that Jawa in particular has developed a form of Islam that would not be recognised as Islam in many other Islamic countries.In fact, once away from the major cities, it would be difficult not to categorise this rural form of Javanese Islam as Islamic-Animism, which of course is something of an oxymoron, but then, Jawa itself is a place of many contradictions.

Animism may be briefly defined as:-

A belief that individual spirits inhabit objects , that spirits are separable from physical bodies, and that a spiritual force permeates the universe.

This belief is active in many parts of Jawa today, and it most certainly did exist in combination with the form of the Hindu faith practiced by the court in Majapahit.

The ordinary people of Jawa have never wholeheartedly followed the religion practiced by the courts of Jawa, whatever that religion may have been at any point in time. The courts in turn have adapted their practice of the Hindu faith, or Islam, to accomodate the beliefs of the ordinary people.

Yes, certainly, the court culture of the Majapahit Kingdom can be regarded as high culture by any standard, but the further any place in Jawa was from the influence of the court, the more there was likely to be a domination of the belief system of the inhabitants of that place by traditional animist beliefs and ancestor worship.

It should be noted that animist beliefs are not necessarily exclusive of other religious beliefs. For instance , the Toraja who I am certain you, Pak Mudi, would be very familiar with, practice a unique form of Christian-Animism.

I find it very interesting that you, Pak Mudi, tell us that if we feed a keris we can give it life, and that if we fail to continue to feed it, the keris could turn on us bring misfortune.

I put it to you that no keris is ever going to be capable of turning on anybody and bringing that person misfortune, or for that matter, good fortune.A keris is simply a physical object made of metal, by a man. Can a man create life? Of course not! Only God can create life, so how can something made by man develop any life of its own?

However, perhaps an object made by man can become a vessel for a spiritual force.

If this spiritual force enters the keris, it is the spiritual force that may bring fortune or misfortune, not the keris itself.

And any of this can only happen if the human being concerned believes that it can happen.

The keris itself must be viewed separately from any spiritual force that may be believed to be within it.

Now, if this is not animist belief, then what is it?

Mudi · 12th July 2006, 11:36 AM

I am very sorry if I cause misunderstanding.

If you say animism is

A belief that individual spirits inhabit objects, that spirits are separable from physical bodies, and that a spiritual force permeates the universe then I understand what you write. To me that describes all culture. Do not all cultures have religions that believe that spirits are separable from physical bodies, and that a spiritual force permeates the universe?

Sorry that I did not understand. I am more used to that word used with primitive tribal culture.

We were always taught that the Majapahit Empire was the golden age of Indonesia. The Majapahit had control or influence on most all of what is today Indonesia.

As for Islam in Indonesia, I can say this. Each year, Indonesia sends more Haj pilgrims to Saudi Arabia than any other country. For the Haj in 2004 the Saudi government gave Indonesia 205,000 spaces for the Haj. Also you may not know that 14% of all the Regencies in Indonesia are under Sharia Law.

When you write The flowon from this was that Jawa in particular has developed a form of Islam that would not be recognised as Islam in many other Islamic countries I am very sorry, but I cannot agree. Islam in Indonesia is majority moderate, but to call it not recognized by other areas of Islam is not right. We read and pray from the same Al Q'uaran as the rest of Islam.

I am further sorry that I cause confusion about feeding keris with incense. Of course man does not bring it life. You write also The keris itself must be viewed separately from any spiritual force that may be believed to be within it. How can this be done? They are one and the same. Do you view man with spiritual force separately or do you embrace the spiritual power and goodness in the man?

I hope I read what you wrote in correct meaning. If I cause more confusion, I am sorry again.

nechesh · 12th July 2006, 02:23 PM

Mudi, here is a link to more infomation about animism. To answer your question simply, no, it is defimitely NOT what all religions believe. Muslims in most other parts of the world would consider this type of thinking extremely heretical: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism.

As to feeding my keris, i think it would be great if it were possible to entice spirit back into an empty keris. Why would you assume that i would then stop feeding it?

BluErf · 12th July 2006, 02:49 PM

Eh ok, we all have our own worldviews, and our own 'Mt Meru' in our home state/country, so our perception of what's "normal" and accepted would differ.

Time to cool down a bit.

VANDOO · 12th July 2006, 03:44 PM

FROM THE BEGINING MAN HAS BEEN AWARE THAT SOME POWER WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR CREATING EVERYTHING THAT EXHISTS. RELEGIONS AND BELIEFS ARE A WAY OF MAN TRYING TO FIND OUT ABOUT AND EXPLAIN THIS CREATOR. WE ARE ONLY MEN AND NOT MENT TO KNOW EVERYTHING SO WHAT WE KNOW IS THRU REVELATION BY THE CREATOR OR SOMETIMES BY GUESSES OF SOME POWERFUL PERSON IN HISTORY. WE ARE NOT MENT TO KNOW EVERYTHING IN THIS LIFE BUT WILL RECEIVE MORE ANSWERS WHEN IT IS OVER. WE MAY THEN FIND MANY OF THE THINGS WE THOUGHT TO BE TRUE WERE NOT BUT WE ARE ALL SMALL PARTS OF THE CREATORS CREATION AND THEREFORE IMPORTANT TO HIM.
I DON'T LOOK DOWN ON MAN'S EARLY BELIEFS AND RELIGIONS I CONSIDER THEM AS EARLY ATTEMPTS AT UNDERSTANDING AND OUR CURRENT RELIGIONS ARE STILL ATTEMPTING TO ACHIEVE THAT UNDERSTANDING. MUCH GOOD HAS BEEN DONE THRUOUT HISTORY BY RELIGIONS BUT UNFORTUNATELY MUCH HARM HAS BEEN DONE ALSO WHICH IS TO BE EXPECTED AS MAN OFTEN TENDS TO PUT HIS OWN WISHES ABOVE THOSE OF HIS CREATOR. WHEN A MAN HARDENS HIS HEART AGAINST HIS FELLOW MAN HE STOPS REALIZING THEY ARE LIKE HIM AND USES HIS OWN MIND TO FIND DIFERENCES TO JUSTIFY DOING THEM WRONG.

THERE IS ONLY ONE CREATOR BUT MAN HAS MADE MANY TEAMS WHO COMPETE WITH EACH OTHER TO PROVE THEY ARE RIGHT AND ALL THE OTHERS WRONG. MANKIND HAS NEVER BEEN ABLE TO WORK TOGETHER BECAUSE WE INSIST ON SEPARATEING EVERYONE INTO GROUPS BY RACE,NATION,TRIBE,RELIGION AND BELIEFS, WEALTH AND STATUS AND INSISTING WE ARE BETTER THAN THEY. I WILL SAY NO MORE AS WE HAVE WANDERED INTO DISCUSSING RELIGION WHICH IS BEST LEFT TO EACH MAN AND IS DIFFICULT TO DISCUSS WITHOUT IT TURNING INTO A ARGUMENT.

nechesh · 12th July 2006, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Eh ok, we all have our own worldviews, and our own 'Mt Meru' in our home state/country, so our perception of what's "normal" and accepted would differ.

Time to cool down a bit.

Kai Wee, maybe i'm missing something here, but this seems to me to be a very calm and cool discussion. Clearly Mudi was unclear as to the actual meaning of animism and how it applies to Indonesian culture and beliefs. It should also be clear that animism is not a belief that is embraced by many of the world religions. I was not attempting to set up a scale of what is "normal" or not, nor to say that one belief is somehow better than another. It's just a matter of what is. My own personal belief system leans towards animism. I guess maybe i'm not "normal", but you already knew that.

BluErf · 12th July 2006, 04:55 PM

Yep, it's still a pretty calm discussion now, but I thought there were signs of it starting to flare up, with views of what school of Islam Indonesia has.

Bill M · 12th July 2006, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Eh ok, we all have our own worldviews, and our own 'Mt Meru' in our home state/country, so our perception of what's "normal" and accepted would differ.

And we all have our own "Chapel Perilous" to negotiate.

Lei Shen Dao · 13th July 2006, 01:00 AM

Bill

http://home.wanadoo.nl/javas/Kalende.../05mei2006.htm

Above is the adress of a Javanese calendar.
The "good" days to offer incense to your keris are the "kliwon" days. Every kliwon follows every five days. The "kemis kliwon" is the best day for this offerring. The kliwons and especially the kemis kliwon, are the days where the spirits are more close to humans and to earth, a kind of "opening" to the spiritual dimension. Offerring is good to be done late at night until 12 at midnight.

Avoid the light when the keris is out of the seath, especially the sun. Spirits are yin endities and they don't love yang. Cemetaries aren't good places to have your keris with you. Don't have it near a woman in her menstrual days (period days) or when you make love. Be quiet and no noise too. When you unseath it drew the sheath not the blade, when you put it back do the opposite and move the blade to the seath calmly. Don't use too much oil. Some drops of it every 3-4 months are ok.
Try to communicate with it with your heart and your mind, think about it, take care of it. It will understand

even if you don't use Indonesian language.

Of course there are other thinks too.
All these concerns only the "live" keris.

But...
Not every old keris has a spirit in it. There aren't too many keris/tombak with power and spirit left. There are some, but not too many as most people think. A keris may be very old but the spirit may have left the blade if the owner didn't took care of it. Of course, as many times the members here said, every old keris most of the times has it's "history" but most of the times this a "selling truth" not the truth itself. You have to be a very sensitive individual to sense it, or to have someone with the abillity to do it. Many claims to be experts in this, few are the "real thing".
You may give a lot of money for example for an old "huddan mas" pamor (to help you make a fortune) that is quite rare to find a reall one nowdays and to be an empty sell, and you may pay 300 or 400 us dollars or euro (or even less) for a "wos wutah" and you may be lucky and have a "live" blade.
If you have jodoh with a keris, with God's help it will find the way to you

Take care.

12th July 2006, 11:36 AM	#3
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	I am very sorry if I cause misunderstanding. If you say animism is A belief that individual spirits inhabit objects, that spirits are separable from physical bodies, and that a spiritual force permeates the universe then I understand what you write. To me that describes all culture. Do not all cultures have religions that believe that spirits are separable from physical bodies, and that a spiritual force permeates the universe? Sorry that I did not understand. I am more used to that word used with primitive tribal culture. We were always taught that the Majapahit Empire was the golden age of Indonesia. The Majapahit had control or influence on most all of what is today Indonesia. As for Islam in Indonesia, I can say this. Each year, Indonesia sends more Haj pilgrims to Saudi Arabia than any other country. For the Haj in 2004 the Saudi government gave Indonesia 205,000 spaces for the Haj. Also you may not know that 14% of all the Regencies in Indonesia are under Sharia Law. When you write The flowon from this was that Jawa in particular has developed a form of Islam that would not be recognised as Islam in many other Islamic countries I am very sorry, but I cannot agree. Islam in Indonesia is majority moderate, but to call it not recognized by other areas of Islam is not right. We read and pray from the same Al Q'uaran as the rest of Islam. I am further sorry that I cause confusion about feeding keris with incense. Of course man does not bring it life. You write also The keris itself must be viewed separately from any spiritual force that may be believed to be within it. How can this be done? They are one and the same. Do you view man with spiritual force separately or do you embrace the spiritual power and goodness in the man? I hope I read what you wrote in correct meaning. If I cause more confusion, I am sorry again. Last edited by Mudi; 12th July 2006 at 11:47 AM. Reason: mispel

12th July 2006, 06:50 AM	#1
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	My first point was that it was an animistic cultural, from which there are many culture hold-overs even to this day. Sorry but I do not understand what you mean. In many parts of Indonesia there are still tribal culture. Do you mean Java was tribal before Islam? Your response to Bill was that Jawa was not animistic before Islam. Yes, Java was not animist before Islam. That is true. It was a high culture of Hindu and Buddhist. If you give incense to a keris you can give it life again. The same is for topeng barong. We believe that if you feed keris, and then stop it can turn on you or bring bad luck.

12th July 2006, 09:15 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Pak Mudi, I most sincerely regret that I must differ from you in your opinion that Jawa was not home to an animist culture prior to the establishment of Islam. In fact, in many respects, and in many places, Jawa is still an animist culture. Although Indonesia is the world`s most populous Islamic nation, the truth is that only a very small percentage of people in Indonesia are devout Muslims, and only about 6,5% could be regarded as Islamic conservatives. The vast majority of people in Jawa, particularly, are Muslim KTP. Abangan. When the nation of Indonesia was established one of the principles of its foundation was religious freedom. All were entitled to follow the religion of their choice. Regretably, the act of choice was compulsory.You could be any religion that you wished, but you could not be of no religion. The result was that a very large number of people who could not have been considered Muslim by any stretch of the imagination, opted to be identified as Muslim. The flowon from this was that Jawa in particular has developed a form of Islam that would not be recognised as Islam in many other Islamic countries.In fact, once away from the major cities, it would be difficult not to categorise this rural form of Javanese Islam as Islamic-Animism, which of course is something of an oxymoron, but then, Jawa itself is a place of many contradictions. Animism may be briefly defined as:- A belief that individual spirits inhabit objects , that spirits are separable from physical bodies, and that a spiritual force permeates the universe. This belief is active in many parts of Jawa today, and it most certainly did exist in combination with the form of the Hindu faith practiced by the court in Majapahit. The ordinary people of Jawa have never wholeheartedly followed the religion practiced by the courts of Jawa, whatever that religion may have been at any point in time. The courts in turn have adapted their practice of the Hindu faith, or Islam, to accomodate the beliefs of the ordinary people. Yes, certainly, the court culture of the Majapahit Kingdom can be regarded as high culture by any standard, but the further any place in Jawa was from the influence of the court, the more there was likely to be a domination of the belief system of the inhabitants of that place by traditional animist beliefs and ancestor worship. It should be noted that animist beliefs are not necessarily exclusive of other religious beliefs. For instance , the Toraja who I am certain you, Pak Mudi, would be very familiar with, practice a unique form of Christian-Animism. I find it very interesting that you, Pak Mudi, tell us that if we feed a keris we can give it life, and that if we fail to continue to feed it, the keris could turn on us bring misfortune. I put it to you that no keris is ever going to be capable of turning on anybody and bringing that person misfortune, or for that matter, good fortune.A keris is simply a physical object made of metal, by a man. Can a man create life? Of course not! Only God can create life, so how can something made by man develop any life of its own? However, perhaps an object made by man can become a vessel for a spiritual force. If this spiritual force enters the keris, it is the spiritual force that may bring fortune or misfortune, not the keris itself. And any of this can only happen if the human being concerned believes that it can happen. The keris itself must be viewed separately from any spiritual force that may be believed to be within it. Now, if this is not animist belief, then what is it?

12th July 2006, 02:23 PM	#4
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Mudi, here is a link to more infomation about animism. To answer your question simply, no, it is defimitely NOT what all religions believe. Muslims in most other parts of the world would consider this type of thinking extremely heretical: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism. As to feeding my keris, i think it would be great if it were possible to entice spirit back into an empty keris. Why would you assume that i would then stop feeding it?

12th July 2006, 02:49 PM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Eh ok, we all have our own worldviews, and our own 'Mt Meru' in our home state/country, so our perception of what's "normal" and accepted would differ. Time to cool down a bit.

12th July 2006, 03:44 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	FROM THE BEGINING MAN HAS BEEN AWARE THAT SOME POWER WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR CREATING EVERYTHING THAT EXHISTS. RELEGIONS AND BELIEFS ARE A WAY OF MAN TRYING TO FIND OUT ABOUT AND EXPLAIN THIS CREATOR. WE ARE ONLY MEN AND NOT MENT TO KNOW EVERYTHING SO WHAT WE KNOW IS THRU REVELATION BY THE CREATOR OR SOMETIMES BY GUESSES OF SOME POWERFUL PERSON IN HISTORY. WE ARE NOT MENT TO KNOW EVERYTHING IN THIS LIFE BUT WILL RECEIVE MORE ANSWERS WHEN IT IS OVER. WE MAY THEN FIND MANY OF THE THINGS WE THOUGHT TO BE TRUE WERE NOT BUT WE ARE ALL SMALL PARTS OF THE CREATORS CREATION AND THEREFORE IMPORTANT TO HIM. I DON'T LOOK DOWN ON MAN'S EARLY BELIEFS AND RELIGIONS I CONSIDER THEM AS EARLY ATTEMPTS AT UNDERSTANDING AND OUR CURRENT RELIGIONS ARE STILL ATTEMPTING TO ACHIEVE THAT UNDERSTANDING. MUCH GOOD HAS BEEN DONE THRUOUT HISTORY BY RELIGIONS BUT UNFORTUNATELY MUCH HARM HAS BEEN DONE ALSO WHICH IS TO BE EXPECTED AS MAN OFTEN TENDS TO PUT HIS OWN WISHES ABOVE THOSE OF HIS CREATOR. WHEN A MAN HARDENS HIS HEART AGAINST HIS FELLOW MAN HE STOPS REALIZING THEY ARE LIKE HIM AND USES HIS OWN MIND TO FIND DIFERENCES TO JUSTIFY DOING THEM WRONG. THERE IS ONLY ONE CREATOR BUT MAN HAS MADE MANY TEAMS WHO COMPETE WITH EACH OTHER TO PROVE THEY ARE RIGHT AND ALL THE OTHERS WRONG. MANKIND HAS NEVER BEEN ABLE TO WORK TOGETHER BECAUSE WE INSIST ON SEPARATEING EVERYONE INTO GROUPS BY RACE,NATION,TRIBE,RELIGION AND BELIEFS, WEALTH AND STATUS AND INSISTING WE ARE BETTER THAN THEY. I WILL SAY NO MORE AS WE HAVE WANDERED INTO DISCUSSING RELIGION WHICH IS BEST LEFT TO EACH MAN AND IS DIFFICULT TO DISCUSS WITHOUT IT TURNING INTO A ARGUMENT.

12th July 2006, 04:55 PM	#8
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Yep, it's still a pretty calm discussion now, but I thought there were signs of it starting to flare up, with views of what school of Islam Indonesia has.

13th July 2006, 01:00 AM	#10
Lei Shen Dao Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 43	Bill http://home.wanadoo.nl/javas/Kalende.../05mei2006.htm Above is the adress of a Javanese calendar. The "good" days to offer incense to your keris are the "kliwon" days. Every kliwon follows every five days. The "kemis kliwon" is the best day for this offerring. The kliwons and especially the kemis kliwon, are the days where the spirits are more close to humans and to earth, a kind of "opening" to the spiritual dimension. Offerring is good to be done late at night until 12 at midnight. Avoid the light when the keris is out of the seath, especially the sun. Spirits are yin endities and they don't love yang. Cemetaries aren't good places to have your keris with you. Don't have it near a woman in her menstrual days (period days) or when you make love. Be quiet and no noise too. When you unseath it drew the sheath not the blade, when you put it back do the opposite and move the blade to the seath calmly. Don't use too much oil. Some drops of it every 3-4 months are ok. Try to communicate with it with your heart and your mind, think about it, take care of it. It will understand even if you don't use Indonesian language. Of course there are other thinks too. All these concerns only the "live" keris. But... Not every old keris has a spirit in it. There aren't too many keris/tombak with power and spirit left. There are some, but not too many as most people think. A keris may be very old but the spirit may have left the blade if the owner didn't took care of it. Of course, as many times the members here said, every old keris most of the times has it's "history" but most of the times this a "selling truth" not the truth itself. You have to be a very sensitive individual to sense it, or to have someone with the abillity to do it. Many claims to be experts in this, few are the "real thing". You may give a lot of money for example for an old "huddan mas" pamor (to help you make a fortune) that is quite rare to find a reall one nowdays and to be an empty sell, and you may pay 300 or 400 us dollars or euro (or even less) for a "wos wutah" and you may be lucky and have a "live" blade. If you have jodoh with a keris, with God's help it will find the way to you Take care.