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16th June 2024, 05:51 PM | #1 |
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Very nice old kris that seems to have been adopted for Visayan use.
I don't see any 16th century Bugis keris discussed in the link you provided. Which of the keris in that thread are you referring to? |
16th June 2024, 07:13 PM | #2 | |
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Quote:
Ian mean the one in post #8. Last edited by Sajen; 16th June 2024 at 10:16 PM. Reason: giving wrong post, sorry |
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16th June 2024, 09:41 PM | #3 |
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I've always enjoyed lurking on kris posts, but I have a technical question. I like the design and integration of the gangya.(cross guard)? and the blade. Likely some cultural reason. But mechanically why is the gangya made separate from the blade and apparently fastened to the blade by those "clips"? Is this a relatively weak connection? The gangya is thicker and wider of the blade, but would seem no great technical chore to forge as a single piece.
Best, Ed |
17th June 2024, 03:08 AM | #4 | |
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Hello Ed,
Quote:
The clips/clamps are mainly to securing the gangya/katik to the blade (as well as helping to attach the hilt to the blade). The latter is a functional aspect; the former has more like a metaphysical reason. Regards, Kai |
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17th June 2024, 08:52 AM | #5 |
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An important question for me is how did a nobility Moro kris end up in Waray dress? I have chatted with another Forum member about this sword and how it might have ended up in the hands of a resident of the eastern Visayas.
There are several ways in which Moro swords might be found outside the original culture.
The quality and mysticism of the sword requires that it was owned by royalty or perhaps a panglima. This, in turn, suggests a significant battle between Moros and Visayans. Several such battles occurred in the Visayas between the Moros and Spanish forces during what has been termed the third phase of the Spanish-Moro War (see here). Between 1599 and 1634 several large scale punitive raids were conducted by the Moros against the Spanish-held areas in the Visayas:
I believe that this 35-year period of Moro incursions against the Spanish is the most likely time for this sword to have been collected by a Waray during conflict with Moro raiders. We have no record of the Waray coming into conflict with Moros elsewhere. Collection of the sword in the early 1600s would likely mean it was made towards the end of the 1500s or early 1600s. So late-16th to early-17th C would be my estimate for age. If this estimate is correct, then the composition of the Moro kris had reached its standard form by this time and for about 250 years going forward. Last edited by Ian; 18th June 2024 at 01:40 AM. Reason: Typos |
17th June 2024, 01:53 PM | #6 |
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Hello Kai,
Thanks for the gangay-blade explanation. "Tradition" does cover a lot of bases and is accepted by cultures as "Just the way it is" to be a proper kris". Also, I guess that the kris is more for Cultural Presentation than for mechanical strength for fighting. Best regards, Ed |
17th June 2024, 02:13 PM | #7 | |
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The Moro kris was very much a fighting weapon, although it was often imbued with mystical and other symbolic meaning (consistent mainly with pre-Islamic beliefs). In the second half of the 19th C, the kris was "upgraded" to have a heavier, wider, and perhaps slightly longer blade to better combat the Spanish blades being used at that time. Combat kris also became mostly straight-bladed swords in this period. Regards, Ian |
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17th June 2024, 10:25 PM | #8 | ||
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Hello Ed,
Quote:
Quote:
The Indo-Malay keris was readily utilized in (very) close quarter fighting, too. Obviously, it's a specialized dagger and not designed to excel at chopping/cutting/etc. Regards, Kai |
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18th June 2024, 12:03 AM | #9 | |
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Hello Ian,
Interesting thoughts: Quote:
Regards, Kai |
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18th June 2024, 01:31 AM | #10 | |
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What I'm trying to do is put out reasoned ideas (hypotheses) that others can support or refute with new evidence. My main message with this sword is that the elements of what Cato calls "archaic kris" might be traced back to early in the 17th C, and possibly before. That's about 200 years earlier than Cato's "pre-1800" statement might suggest. I think that is an important point to pursue when thinking about the development of the Moro kris. |
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16th June 2024, 09:52 PM | #11 |
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17th June 2024, 01:44 AM | #12 |
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Are the star patterns on the blade unusual? They remind me of the patterns on this Visayan knife scabbard.
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17th June 2024, 02:55 AM | #13 |
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Very nice garab, Jeff, congrats!
The motif on Moro blades (like Ian's here) is usually a bit asymmetrical. Thus, I believe they might be different. Regards, Kai |
17th June 2024, 02:16 PM | #14 |
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17th June 2024, 02:43 PM | #15 | |
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You may be correct. I am no keris expert. I was guided by Albert's description, which I posted with the pictures of that keris. Albert noted that it was the oldest item from the royal house that acquired it. The Dutch ancestor who collected the keris was the head of the VOC at the time, as noted in the thread I referenced. Whether or not it was a Bugis or Java keris, it reflected the style of keris dating from the late Majapahit period. As noted in my reply to Kai above, contact of seafaring Sulu and Mindanao groups with various parts of the Majapahit Empire likely occurred well before the 16th C, so the rather late Bugis (?) example may be moot. |
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17th June 2024, 03:21 PM | #16 | |
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17th June 2024, 06:55 PM | #17 |
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Thanks Ian!! The more I visit the Forum the more I learn about ethnographic weapons.
Best, Ed |
17th June 2024, 11:05 PM | #18 | |
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17th June 2024, 10:59 PM | #19 | |
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Hello Ian,
Quote:
There is no doubt that Mojopahit cultural influences carried over into subsequent ruling houses on Java (and elsewhere). However, there are no extant "modern" keris blades (as the one early "collected" by the VOC) whose origin can be safely established to predate Mataram. Aside from the keris buda (a type which probably was already around in even earlier times), there is no specific style of keris that is surely known from the period when Mojo culture widely influenced much of maritime SE Asia. Regards, Kai |
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17th June 2024, 11:32 PM | #20 | ||
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Quote:
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18th June 2024, 01:09 AM | #21 | |
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Hello Ian,
Quote:
During this period, the keris seems to have been limited to very select members of society (i.e. the ruling class). Regards, Kai |
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