Comments/Opinions on keris singa barong

nechesh · 12th July 2006, 04:08 AM

Mudi, what other reasons do you have for believing this to be a Balinese keris other that the size of the pesi. I have certainly seen a 3" pesi on Javanese blades of this size.

Mudi · 12th July 2006, 04:29 AM

My father is Bugis but my mother is from Denpasar Bali. So I grow up with both culture. Each very different. The photo is not real sharp on my computer. I am not certain this is keris di Bali. I just offered suggestion that it could be from Bali. If I can find time, I will show some like this from Pak Dibia?s book or maybe from some keris Bali in our collection. Pak Dibia?s book shows many sarong just like this one. Also, many Balinese or Hindu Javanese are still in east Java. Same is with Lombok were keris made there cannot be certain if keris Lombok or keris Bali. In Indonesia all keris are brothers or family, so cannot always tell exactly where or what Empu made the keris.

nechesh · 12th July 2006, 04:55 AM

Well, the sarong looks East Javanese to me. Of course that is no assurance of the origins of the blade itself. No doubt you will still find communities of Balinese in East Jawa, but i would not compare this situation with Bali and Lombak. If i am not mistaken, the Balinese court actually once ruled over Lombak. This would not be the case in Jawa. That would have a very strong influence of the type of keris made in Lombok. That same Bali court influence did not exist in Jawa. Keris throughout Indonesia certainly are related and you are right to point out that at times it can be difficult to determine origin. I will take your statement one step further and suggest that unless one has strong provenence for a keris (which is rare) one can never know for sure what mpu made it. It is generally much easier to tell what area a keris is from. Still.....sometimes not.

I asked you the question because to me this appears to be a keris form well known to Jawa that was presented in East Jawa dress. The surface of this keris appears to be rough from etching, not polished as i understand is the tradition for Bali keris. I suppose it could be a Bali keris that has been kept in a Javanese manner, but i would just be guessing there. So i asked the question why you thought it might be Balinese because i thought you might have some substantial reasoning.

VANDOO · 12th July 2006, 04:54 AM

THE PEARL WAS SAID TO BE THE TEARS OF THE MOON AND SOME WERE SWALLOWED BY OYSTERS ,SOME WERE TAKEN UP BY DRAGONS AS THEIR MOST PRECIOUS POSSESION AND WERE CALLED PEARLS OF WISDOM WHEN IN THE DRAGONS POSSESION. THEY FIGURE IN A LOT OF OLD CHINESE LEGENDS THERE IS EVEN ONE ABOUT A FAMOUS DRAGON AND ITS PEARL THAT LIVED ON TOP OF MOUNT. KINABALU IN BORNEO. DRAGONS ARE OFTEN SEEN PURSUING THE FIRE PEARL IN CHINESE ART AND THE LION IN THE LION DANCE IS OFTEN TEASED BY A MAN WITH ONE DURING THE DANCE.
OFTEN IN CHINA THERE IS A STONE BALL IN THE MOUTHS OF THE GAURDIAN LIONS BY GATES AND DOORS IT IS GOOD LUCK TO SPIN IT 3 TIMES(IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY) BEFORE ENTERING AND IT IS SAID IF YOU CAN REMOVE IT IT WILL TURN TO GOLD. SO I WOULD SAY THE LION OR TIGER (IT DOES HAVE STRIPES

) STANDS FOR POWER ,THE GOLD BALL FOR LUCK, WHISDOM AND PROSPERITY AND THE TYPE OF PARMOR ,BLADE SHAPE AND NUMBER OF LUKS WILL ALSO ADD TO ITS POWERS. UNFORTUNATELY I AM NOT A SCHOLAR OF THE KERIS BUT THIS WILL GIVE THE LAYMAN SOME IDEA OF THE SYMBOLISM AND POWERS THEY ARE BELIEVED TO HAVE AND WHY THEY ARE CONSIDERED SO VALUABLE AND IMPORTANT.

BluErf · 12th July 2006, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

OFTEN IN CHINA THERE IS A STONE BALL IN THE MOUTHS OF THE GAURDIAN LIONS BY GATES AND DOORS IT IS GOOD LUCK TO SPIN IT 3 TIMES(IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY) BEFORE ENTERING AND IT IS SAID IF YOU CAN REMOVE IT IT WILL TURN TO GOLD. SO I WOULD SAY THE LION OR TIGER (IT DOES HAVE STRIPES

) STANDS FOR POWER ,THE GOLD BALL FOR LUCK, WHISDOM AND PROSPERITY AND THE TYPE OF PARMOR ,BLADE SHAPE AND NUMBER OF LUKS WILL ALSO ADD TO ITS POWERS.

Thanks Vandoo. You know more about these things than I did, and I'm Chinese.

Next time I see a stone lion with a ball in it's mouth, I'll go spin it!

BluErf · 10th December 2006, 03:29 AM

He's back with a more appropriate ukiran.

And I noticed that Rick has a similar ukiran on his ladrangan Yogya.

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

Rick · 10th December 2006, 03:02 PM

Hi Kai Wee,
The work on the cecekans is extremely well done on this handle.
Semar is one of my favorite handle forms as possibly you can tell by my avatar.

The wood is just lovely.

Have you come to any conclusions about the age of this blade since you first posted?

Rick

David · 10th December 2006, 03:44 PM

Agreed, that is a lovely ukiran...and i also prefer your new choice of mendak.

Age is always a difficult thing to judge and they have gotten really good at different techniques of artifical aging. Regardless, i find this to be a very attractive keris, but i also understand the desire to KNOW one way or the other. I believe Kai Wee is correct that you can, from time to time, still find that excellent deal on a great old keris, and perhaps this is one of those times. As Alan suggested though, if one considers the price AND the source the answer might be implied. Either way i like it.

A. G. Maisey · 10th December 2006, 10:51 PM

Pretty nice keris, however, one thing troubles me with that singo barong:- I cannot see the lines of pamor continuing from the singo barong into the blade.
I have a couple of blades where the singo barong has been welded separately to the blade. When I bought them I did not see this, and only discovered it later. These blades have been inspected by some knowledgeable people, and they didn't see it either, until it was pointed out.

Kai Wee, I suggest that you inspect very carefully the entire area around the point where the singo barong joins the body of the blade, and a little further perhaps, and see if can find definite evidence of the grain of the metal continuing unbroken from the singo barong into the body of the blade.

The second handle you have fitted is a very nice handle, but it is not appropriate for this keris.

10th December 2006, 03:29 AM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	He's back with a more appropriate ukiran. And I noticed that Rick has a similar ukiran on his ladrangan Yogya. http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php Attached Images

12th July 2006, 04:08 AM	#1
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Mudi, what other reasons do you have for believing this to be a Balinese keris other that the size of the pesi. I have certainly seen a 3" pesi on Javanese blades of this size.

12th July 2006, 04:29 AM	#2
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	My father is Bugis but my mother is from Denpasar Bali. So I grow up with both culture. Each very different. The photo is not real sharp on my computer. I am not certain this is keris di Bali. I just offered suggestion that it could be from Bali. If I can find time, I will show some like this from Pak Dibia?s book or maybe from some keris Bali in our collection. Pak Dibia?s book shows many sarong just like this one. Also, many Balinese or Hindu Javanese are still in east Java. Same is with Lombok were keris made there cannot be certain if keris Lombok or keris Bali. In Indonesia all keris are brothers or family, so cannot always tell exactly where or what Empu made the keris.

12th July 2006, 04:55 AM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well, the sarong looks East Javanese to me. Of course that is no assurance of the origins of the blade itself. No doubt you will still find communities of Balinese in East Jawa, but i would not compare this situation with Bali and Lombak. If i am not mistaken, the Balinese court actually once ruled over Lombak. This would not be the case in Jawa. That would have a very strong influence of the type of keris made in Lombok. That same Bali court influence did not exist in Jawa. Keris throughout Indonesia certainly are related and you are right to point out that at times it can be difficult to determine origin. I will take your statement one step further and suggest that unless one has strong provenence for a keris (which is rare) one can never know for sure what mpu made it. It is generally much easier to tell what area a keris is from. Still.....sometimes not. I asked you the question because to me this appears to be a keris form well known to Jawa that was presented in East Jawa dress. The surface of this keris appears to be rough from etching, not polished as i understand is the tradition for Bali keris. I suppose it could be a Bali keris that has been kept in a Javanese manner, but i would just be guessing there. So i asked the question why you thought it might be Balinese because i thought you might have some substantial reasoning.

12th July 2006, 04:54 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE PEARL WAS SAID TO BE THE TEARS OF THE MOON AND SOME WERE SWALLOWED BY OYSTERS ,SOME WERE TAKEN UP BY DRAGONS AS THEIR MOST PRECIOUS POSSESION AND WERE CALLED PEARLS OF WISDOM WHEN IN THE DRAGONS POSSESION. THEY FIGURE IN A LOT OF OLD CHINESE LEGENDS THERE IS EVEN ONE ABOUT A FAMOUS DRAGON AND ITS PEARL THAT LIVED ON TOP OF MOUNT. KINABALU IN BORNEO. DRAGONS ARE OFTEN SEEN PURSUING THE FIRE PEARL IN CHINESE ART AND THE LION IN THE LION DANCE IS OFTEN TEASED BY A MAN WITH ONE DURING THE DANCE. OFTEN IN CHINA THERE IS A STONE BALL IN THE MOUTHS OF THE GAURDIAN LIONS BY GATES AND DOORS IT IS GOOD LUCK TO SPIN IT 3 TIMES(IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY) BEFORE ENTERING AND IT IS SAID IF YOU CAN REMOVE IT IT WILL TURN TO GOLD. SO I WOULD SAY THE LION OR TIGER (IT DOES HAVE STRIPES ) STANDS FOR POWER ,THE GOLD BALL FOR LUCK, WHISDOM AND PROSPERITY AND THE TYPE OF PARMOR ,BLADE SHAPE AND NUMBER OF LUKS WILL ALSO ADD TO ITS POWERS. UNFORTUNATELY I AM NOT A SCHOLAR OF THE KERIS BUT THIS WILL GIVE THE LAYMAN SOME IDEA OF THE SYMBOLISM AND POWERS THEY ARE BELIEVED TO HAVE AND WHY THEY ARE CONSIDERED SO VALUABLE AND IMPORTANT.

10th December 2006, 03:02 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Hi Kai Wee, The work on the cecekans is extremely well done on this handle. Semar is one of my favorite handle forms as possibly you can tell by my avatar. The wood is just lovely. Have you come to any conclusions about the age of this blade since you first posted? Rick

10th December 2006, 03:44 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Agreed, that is a lovely ukiran...and i also prefer your new choice of mendak. Age is always a difficult thing to judge and they have gotten really good at different techniques of artifical aging. Regardless, i find this to be a very attractive keris, but i also understand the desire to KNOW one way or the other. I believe Kai Wee is correct that you can, from time to time, still find that excellent deal on a great old keris, and perhaps this is one of those times. As Alan suggested though, if one considers the price AND the source the answer might be implied. Either way i like it.

10th December 2006, 10:51 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Pretty nice keris, however, one thing troubles me with that singo barong:- I cannot see the lines of pamor continuing from the singo barong into the blade. I have a couple of blades where the singo barong has been welded separately to the blade. When I bought them I did not see this, and only discovered it later. These blades have been inspected by some knowledgeable people, and they didn't see it either, until it was pointed out. Kai Wee, I suggest that you inspect very carefully the entire area around the point where the singo barong joins the body of the blade, and a little further perhaps, and see if can find definite evidence of the grain of the metal continuing unbroken from the singo barong into the body of the blade. The second handle you have fitted is a very nice handle, but it is not appropriate for this keris.