Indonesian spear with brass blade

[A. G. Maisey]

Milandro, I have for many years maintained that as a general principle, it is not difficult to provide an answer, however, it can be extremely difficult to phrase a question so that a supportable answer must be provided.

In this current discussion the question arose that dealt with the comparative hardness of brass & bronze.I provided an answer that is generally accepted within the metal trades, however, that answer is a poor answer to an even poorer question.

If we wish to compare the hardness of bronze & brass we need to specify firstly the analysis of each material, in other words, the percentage of the various metals used to produce the brass sample, & the percentage of the various metals used to produce the bronze sample. Additionally it is probably advisable to specify the hardness test that is to be used & the conditions under which the test is to be conducted.

In my post #9 I stated this:-
" Comparative hardness of bronze & brass depends upon the alloys used, however, as a general guide, brass tests at Rockwell 55, bronze at Rockwell 42".

I abbreviated my response because I did not want to write a 5000 word paper on this subject, I gave a simple, incomplete response that encapsulated the trade understanding of this matter, an understanding that has probably been formed because of the overall availability of particular alloys of both materials.

In fact, testing can be arranged that will show brass to be both harder & softer than bronze, the range of hardness for brass on the Rockwell Scale is 55 to 73, the range of hardness for bronze on the Rockwell Scale is 40 to 420.

Bronze alloys do display one feature that can cause a misunderstanding of its hardness, & this is that bronze can tolerate a greater external force than brass, but once again, that is a function of the particular alloy of bronze that is under examination.

Here is a link that will support the opinion that brass is harder than bronze, but as I have stated, that is a general understanding amongst those who work with these metals.

https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/me...ethods-scales/

In respect of the concept of an Indonesian "Bronze Age".

The available evidence suggests that in the islands now known as "Indonesia" there was no distinct "Bronze Age", nor was there a distinct "Iron Age" , both technologies developed together & within the same time frame.

See Van Heekeren:- "The Bronze-Iron age of Indonesia".

[milandro]

well, obviously , there are arguments to be made in both directions.

[A. G. Maisey]

I tend to disagree that that this is a matter for any kind of argument, but it is a matter which needs to be understood and which deserves to have statements that deal with the characteristics of these two materials expressed in specific terms.

When we are specific there can be no argument, because in the presence of clear evidence there can be no variation in opinion.

EDIT

I've just noticed, that last google link is to van Heekeren, I did not know this book was online, its worth a read.

[Tim Simmons]

The spear look really nice. Cool lines. I think too question how effective a bronze or brass spear is without knowing the the alloying is a bit in the air. Possibly how armoured the target is may be relevant but look at the the plain palm wood spears from much of the world able to kill an opponent.

[asomotif]

Interesting to see how this discussion gets lost in the bronze / brass issue.

Bronze or brass, this was made in a period and an area where laminated iron was very common. So why this material ?

I do not know.

I have a similar spear with a bronze / brass spearhead, I bought it years ago with 2 others. the entire lot was sold as spears from Borneo.

It must be in the attic. I will try to take some pictures, but it is very similar to this one.

[A. G. Maisey]

Perhaps metals other than iron were used because of availability, & because of simplicity.

Just as all bronze is not equal, & all brass is not equal, & all irons are not equal.

Laminated iron is quite expensive to produce.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Interesting to see how this discussion gets lost in the bronze / brass issue.

Bronze or brass, this was made in a period and an area where laminated iron was very common. So why this material ?

I do not know.

I have a similar spear with a bronze / brass spearhead, I bought it years ago with 2 others. the entire lot was sold as spears from Borneo.

It must be in the attic. I will try to take some pictures, but it is very similar to this one.

Hi Willem,

Would be great to see your one, so a possible origin could be from Borneo.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

The spear look really nice. Cool lines. I think too question how effective a bronze or brass spear is without knowing the the alloying is a bit in the air. Possibly how armoured the target is may be relevant but look at the the plain palm wood spears from much of the world able to kill an opponent.

Thank you Tim!

[asomotif]

Not very good pictures with artificial ight. but here it is.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Not very good pictures with artificial ight. but here it is.

Thank you Willem, indeed very similar!

Can I come to you and take what you have stored in the attic?