Ladrang remodelled?

[Pendita65]

Originally Posted by David

Not at all, though that is indeed a magnificent repair job. Alan has given a hint as to what i am talking about, which is cutting down a Ladrang sheath to a Kacir style to remove the damaged areas altogether.

I think i found it, searching for Kacir style and i guess this is how they used to reshape the Warangka.

https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13435

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Pendita65

I think i found it, searching for Kacir style and i guess this is how they used to reshape the Warangka.

https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13435

Sorry, I strongly doubt.

[Pendita65]

Hi Detlef,

why?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Pendita65

Hi Detlef,
why?

Hi Martin,

Because the shown wrongko type is a legitimately wrongko form and not a recarved ladrang form.

Regards,
Detlef

[Pendita65]

Thanks Detlef,

i will keep on searching, I believe they sometimes changed a damaged warangka by just altering the appeareance of the form to keep the dress.

But i might be wrong and think of it from western traditions where broken things where repaired or changed due to the damage or changing taste.

[A. G. Maisey]

In respect of other wrongko forms that lack a defined angkup, whether the sans angkup form is original or is the result of remodeling.

1) Attached is the Candi Sukuh form referred to in post #9. The form from which this form is probably derived is quite similar to the form that we now know as Bugis, and can be seen in the Candi Panataran reliefs. See images.

2) Central Javanese ladrang forms that do have a defined angkup but that have lost this angkup are never original creations, a Central Javanese ladrangan without angkup is always the result of an alteration, the loss of the angkup makes the keris unsuited for formal wear & for court wear, in some non-formal settings, such as wear in a village non-formal situation it could be acceptable, often this loss of angkup has been done by a dealer in preparation for sale, if for sale to a local, in the expectation that the local buyer will redress to suit his own needs & taste, if for sale to a cultural outsider, because the cultural outsider will not not know the difference in any case.

3) The Balinese wrongko form that does have a very slight "angkup" is the Sesrengatan form, it is the direct Balinese equivalent of the Javanese ladrangan form, it is used for formal & official occasions, & the same restrictions on use for a damaged and/or modified wrongko apply in Bali as for in Jawa.

See here:-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26082

4) For North Coast variations both original & modified from other forms, see here:-

https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13435

[Pendita65]

Mr. Maisey,

thank you for the thorough explanation, and yes with my western view i did not think of all the rules in according the wear and use of the Keris in daily life in Java.
I have to find then a suitable dress for the Keris that i have where the Angkup was lost. Did you ever had a new sarong made for a Keris in Java? And is it allowed to bring a Keris blade to Indonesia for having made a new dress for it?

best wishes, Martin

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

2) Central Javanese ladrang forms that do have a defined angkup but that have lost this angkup are never original creations, a Central Javanese ladrangan without angkup is always the result of an alteration, the loss of the angkup makes the keris unsuited for formal wear & for court wear, in some non-formal settings, such as wear in a village non-formal situation it could be acceptable, often this loss of angkup has been done by a dealer in preparation for sale, if for sale to a local, in the expectation that the local buyer will redress to suit his own needs & taste, if for sale to a cultural outsider, because the cultural outsider will not not know the difference in any case.

There is a Keris from Yogyakarta, presented by Raffles to George IV when Prince Regent in 1813. There are descriptions, which add, it was taken in the loothing of Kraton a year earlier. I was able to see this Keris, and I couldn't see any traces of alterations to the sheath. Everybody acquainted with the shape of a Ladrangan from Yogyakarta - Branggah - will see, that this physically cannot be an alteration of a lost Angkup - because the "lip" of the sheath goes too moch forward for an Yogyakarta style Angkup.

Attached another high quality conventional Branggah image, taken from the same angle.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

3) The Balinese wrongko form that does have a very slight "angkup" is the Sesrengatan form, it is the direct Balinese equivalent of the Javanese ladrangan form, it is used for formal & official occasions, & the same restrictions on use for a damaged and/or modified wrongko apply in Bali as for in Jawa.

See here:-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26082

I didn't mean the Sesrengatan form, I mean this one, which is rare, but can be found from Eastern Java till Lombok.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

4) For North Coast variations both original & modified from other forms, see here:-

https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13435

The way how this Pasisir sheath is carved leads me to think, that its front part could be original - the edges, or the "lip" are pointing downwards, at the same time have too much volume at the needed place for a standard Ladrangan with Angkup. Nevertheless, this one could be the only one sheath from all examples I presented (and have seen in person), where I would consider a complete recarving some longer time ago, because patina on all parts of Atasan is genuine.