Medieval sword - opinions needed

[Reventlov]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

a very nice exhibition!

If only I were close enough to visit... I recognize several of the pieces, but not the large brazil-nut pommel in the foreground. It appears to have an inscription, and the label suggests it is a name? Grateful for any more details on this one (and apologies for being off-topic).

Mark

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Reventlov

If only I were close enough to visit... I recognize several of the pieces, but not the large brazil-nut pommel in the foreground. It appears to have an inscription, and the label suggests it is a name? Grateful for any more details on this one (and apologies for being off-topic).

Mark

HI Mark, the one with huge pommel has an Vlfberht inscription. the others also have interesting inscriptions. I will forward you the pics I made via messenger.

best

[AHorsa]

Dear All,

thank you very much for sharing your knowledge and your thoughts! Regarding the described possibilites by Lee to somehow determine in a scientific way: I would have access to an x-ray, but it is made for humans. As far as I know the power might be too low. I will check possibilities for a material analysis.

In any case I would try to find the previous owner or finder.
A medieval sword doesn't pop out of nowhere.

The sword was found 1977 by some workers in a river in the former GDR. A communal building officer, who was a collector, bought it from them and cleaned it. A friend of mine knew this this guy since childhood and bought the sword from him over ten years ago. That is the story but it is not possible to talk to the building officer anymore as he moved to another country and meanwhile he might have already passed away.

The black patina in water finds is goethite, which is glass hard and difficult to remove, even mechanically.
You could have the patina tested for hardness and chemically with, for example, acetone or other chemical solvent. If it gives off black, it is a recently applied patina.

The patina is resistant to solvent chemicals. But it is not super hard. I compared it to the remaining patina of my sword fragment (an archeolocial documented river find - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21669) and it behaves pretty much indentical. It also looks very much the same. The patina in my eyes is surely not artificially added. But I don´t know if there are methods to get metal rapidly aged and patinated in a natural way?

I´d like to draw your attention to this "chip" mentioned by Teisani in the first reply. as explained this chip is undermined by black oxidation and sticks out. I tried to catch it in a better image and did a small drawing In my eyes this could not only be an indicator for folded steel, but also for some age. But I might be wrong.

The outer edge of the crossguard wasn´t cleaned propper and remains some brownish-orange adhesion. To me it looks very much like what I know from metal found in a river (I do often search the Rhine for relics when it has low water )

I added some more pictures that hopefully gives a better image of the oxidation / patina.

Regarding the condition: I think it very much depends on the composition of the water (content of oxygen, soil composition etc) as well as when the sword has fallen into it. There is this drawing from Albrecht Durer 1497, showing a person wearing a much older sword (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...28&postcount=6). I think swords where used for a very long time.

here are two examples from the Wallace Collection, where it seems to me the patination is similar:

https://wallacelive.wallacecollectio...p=F&sp=T&sp=94

https://wallacelive.wallacecollectio...lBlockKey&sp=0

Kind regards
Andreas

[AHorsa]

Here is a sword with a similar patination. Sadly there is no background information on it:

[cornelistromp]

Unfortunately, I cannot report anything additional than what has already been said.
Forgeries are made so faithfully that not much can be said about them based on photos alone.
That the patina does not dissolve is a good sign. If you want to be a little more certain, as Lee suggested, you can send a small chip from the shoulder or cutting edge for microscopic examination for inclusions.
However, unfortunately it only says something meaningful if new steel has been used.

X-ray can also provide more clarity, perhaps inscriptions are visible, including, for example info of the construction of the tang to the blade. Furthermore I would still advise to follow the trail of the story, any additional info will help.

best,

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Unfortunately, I cannot report anything additional than what has already been said.
Forgeries are made so faithfully that not much can be said about them based on photos alone.
That the patina does not dissolve is a good sign. If you want to be a little more certain, as Lee suggested, you can send a small chip from the shoulder or cutting edge for microscopic examination for inclusions.
However, unfortunately it only says something meaningful if new steel has been used.

X-ray can also provide more clarity, perhaps inscriptions are visible, including, for example info of the construction of the tang to the blade. Furthermore I would still advise to follow the trail of the story, any additional info will help.

best,

edit 10-02
I have studied some different surface photos, details and dimensions that have been sent to me and I have to say that it looks promising that this could indeed be an original piece.
I'm curious about the further search and confirmations.
best
Jasper

[Raf]

Hi Andreas. Pleased you found my comments helpfull. If you decide to experiment mind how you go . Electrolisis releases both oxygen and hydrogen and potentially harmful gasses. Maybe a long shot but is occurred to me that an artificially patinated surface might contain traces of the electolite used. Washing soda is extremely alkaline with a pH level of 11. So if it was possible to test the corrosion a low PH might suggest that the patina was not artificially induced. Im leaning to the view that your sword is genuine.

[Raf]

Originally Posted by AHorsa

Here is a sword with a similar patination. Sadly there is no background information on it:

Probably the only way to establish the authenticity of your sword is to understand how these extreme patinas on fake medieval swords are created. Which I assume involves reversing the process of electrolysis used to de rust authentic archaeological finds. This involves dumping the fake sword in a bath of water and washing soda , hook it up to an arc welder and stand well back . The sword is connected to the positive side of the power supply and the negative side to iron plates suspended in the solution. Negative ions (oxygen ) are attracted to the anode, the oxygen combines with the iron and forms the rust. The longer the process or the higher the amperage the more of the iron is etched away. Once pitting has begun some complicated metallurgy takes place which means the pits get deeper creating the irregularly surface associated with genuine decomposition of an iron object. I hope this explanation is in principal correct but if it isnt I’m sure someone more knowledgeably will correct me.

So far so good. The sword will have an orange rust surface which is unlikely to be convincing unless its being offered as a recently excavated find. Options then are to revere the polarity to strip off the recently acquired rust in which case the appearance will be an object that has been electrolytically cleaned. Alternatively remove some , but not all of the rust and use a rust converter (tannic acid) to chemically convert the reddish iron oxides into bluish-black ferric tannate, a more stable material associated with old well established rust.

Rather than comparing the patina on your sword to authenticated examples it might be useful to compare it to the patina on obviously faked examples . A trip round the net will provide plenty of spurious objects that have been aged in this way . Bradfords auctioneers has some good examples of genuine fake medieval swords and helmets. It might be possible to see if there are any minute differences between naturally occurring and electrolytically simulated ageing that might tip the balance one way or other.

[AHorsa]

Thank you very much for your explanations Raf!

The auction house is indeed a good source for axamples of artificial patina. I studied them and I can´t find corresponding examples. It looks different and much more inhomogenious on my sword.

When I find the time I will try to reproduce this electrolysis aging process. might be interesting.

Kind regards
Andreas