Strange Shield for Discussion

RobT · 3rd February 2024, 12:42 AM

Hi All,

Three questions remain:
Are there any examples of shields with elaborate designs on the inside?
Why was this complex design so crudely destroyed to make room for the grip and padding?
What is the diameter of the piece?

drac2k,
The piece that went inside the hole could indeed have been a shield boss or it could just as well have been a helmet finial of some sort. I agree with you that knowing whether the item is lacquered or not would be very helpful.

Richard G,
I have seen a good number of Ethiopian crosses in silver. I can't recall any that looked like what is on the item.

kino,
The above mentioned finial could quite possibly be used to affix any padding, ear flaps, and straps. If the item was originally a jingasa, then the leather isn't original to the piece.

Gavin Nugent,
I have a real problem with the way the leather straps work with the design on the face of the shield. They don't. They are just punched through the design haphazardly. You would think that all design and practical elements would be made to work harmoniously together as they do on your examples.

Sincerely,
RobT

Gavin Nugent · 3rd February 2024, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

Hi All,

I have a real problem with the way the leather straps work with the design on the face of the shield. They don't. They are just punched through the design haphazardly. You would think that all design and practical elements would be made to work harmoniously together as they do on your examples.

Sincerely,
RobT

To be fair, none of the region do really work in harmony in that they are punched through and do cover aspects of tooling and paint inside and out on the types, but, it can be seen externally they have been painted to match the external on these examples.

Another aspect I noted in the last day, the "X" motifs seen on this one, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22648
They are very common on Somali shields, painted within the inner motifs of the Somali Gaashaan.

Tim Simmons · 3rd February 2024, 01:33 PM

Very interesting but it still does not resemble anything like the construction of the Somali {East African } shields we all more familiar with. Could the painting be Burmese ? I seen painted sticks. Still see a leather helmet the pad so the cone is not forced on your head.

RobT · 4th February 2024, 04:51 AM

Hi All,
The original post was a request for information on the origin of the item. I have asked twice for the diameter of the piece. This is a simple request that may be critical to the item's identification but thus far, the original poster has failed to respond. Also note that, although information on the materials used to make the item has been asked for, the original poster has not given any information on same. One would think that, if the original poster is really serious about getting an ID for the item, he would have provided the requested information.

Gavin Nugent,
I don't see a real design correlation between the example provided in your latest link and the item currently under discussion. The design example provided by Ibrahiim Balooshi in that link is strongly geometric with the design and background closely tied together. In short, it looks Islamic. To my eye, the subject of this thread has a far different treatment of design and negative (background) space and that aesthetic looks far more Asian. I also should note that the respondents to that thread were quite divided and a link to an even prior thread didn't lead to any solid consensus either.

My proposal is that the shield started life as a Japanese jingasa worn by a samurai mercenary in South East Asia and was converted by the native population to a buckler. Mercenary samurai were employed all over SEA so jingasa were probably relatively common and a reasonable number became available to native craftsmen for conversion. This would explain why the conversion elements (hand straps and padding) don't work with the original design.

Sincerely,
RobT

Ian · 4th February 2024, 05:03 AM

Hi Rob,

You have proposed an interesting origin for this shield. I hope the originator of this thread gets back to us shortly with the information that you requested. Sometimes other life issues get in the way of ethnographic arms and armour discussions and a prompt reply to questions asked.

RobT · 4th February 2024, 02:46 PM

Ian,
You are correct of course and I need to take a deep breath.

Using the first two picturesI provided, I believe that we can get an approximate diameter for the item. The mid century modern sofa and chair legs shown in the second photo are typically 1-7/8” to 2” at the bottom. Using that as a guide we can estimate the width of the floor planks as between 3” to 4”. Conveniently, the item is positioned at the front edge of one plank and is just shy of the back edge of the fourth plank. This yields an estimate of just under 12” to just under 16”.

Sincerely,
RobT

A.alnakkas · 4th February 2024, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Rob,

You have proposed an interesting origin for this shield. I hope the originator of this thread gets back to us shortly with the information that you requested. Sometimes other life issues get in the way of ethnographic arms and armour discussions and a prompt reply to questions asked.

That is indeed what is happening. I promise Rob though, I'll get back to him with a few thoughts and dimensions asap.

A.alnakkas · 6th February 2024, 03:47 PM

apologies for the late reply.

The shield diameter is 47 cm or 18.5 inches. The shield will be shipped to me later on and I can do more measurements, its currently in the care of my friend in the US, Nate Hope.

Here are some thoughts, I believe its a shield and it being a hat (or a helm) is farfetched. I think so because the handles are too close to each other and too far up, along with the cushion which appears if its for a head, it wont do much cushioning. Unless its specifically was made for a person with an extremely long forehead and ears up high in their head.

A feature I noticed is that the two straps are consistently made of different material and different fitting method in my shield and others shared by Gavin. It appears that one strap is made of leather and the other is made of wood fitted with two thin leather straps. The fact that its on the 3 items available for us to examine shows purposefulness and an odd option to do for a hat.

3rd February 2024, 12:42 AM	#1
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 533	Unaddressed Questions Needing Answers Hi All, Three questions remain: Are there any examples of shields with elaborate designs on the inside? Why was this complex design so crudely destroyed to make room for the grip and padding? What is the diameter of the piece? drac2k, The piece that went inside the hole could indeed have been a shield boss or it could just as well have been a helmet finial of some sort. I agree with you that knowing whether the item is lacquered or not would be very helpful. Richard G, I have seen a good number of Ethiopian crosses in silver. I can't recall any that looked like what is on the item. kino, The above mentioned finial could quite possibly be used to affix any padding, ear flaps, and straps. If the item was originally a jingasa, then the leather isn't original to the piece. Gavin Nugent, I have a real problem with the way the leather straps work with the design on the face of the shield. They don't. They are just punched through the design haphazardly. You would think that all design and practical elements would be made to work harmoniously together as they do on your examples. Sincerely, RobT

4th February 2024, 04:51 AM	#4
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 533	Diameter Needed Hi All, The original post was a request for information on the origin of the item. I have asked twice for the diameter of the piece. This is a simple request that may be critical to the item's identification but thus far, the original poster has failed to respond. Also note that, although information on the materials used to make the item has been asked for, the original poster has not given any information on same. One would think that, if the original poster is really serious about getting an ID for the item, he would have provided the requested information. Gavin Nugent, I don't see a real design correlation between the example provided in your latest link and the item currently under discussion. The design example provided by Ibrahiim Balooshi in that link is strongly geometric with the design and background closely tied together. In short, it looks Islamic. To my eye, the subject of this thread has a far different treatment of design and negative (background) space and that aesthetic looks far more Asian. I also should note that the respondents to that thread were quite divided and a link to an even prior thread didn't lead to any solid consensus either. My proposal is that the shield started life as a Japanese jingasa worn by a samurai mercenary in South East Asia and was converted by the native population to a buckler. Mercenary samurai were employed all over SEA so jingasa were probably relatively common and a reasonable number became available to native craftsmen for conversion. This would explain why the conversion elements (hand straps and padding) don't work with the original design. Sincerely, RobT

4th February 2024, 02:46 PM	#6
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 533	Diameter Estimate Ian, You are correct of course and I need to take a deep breath. Using the first two picturesI provided, I believe that we can get an approximate diameter for the item. The mid century modern sofa and chair legs shown in the second photo are typically 1-7/8” to 2” at the bottom. Using that as a guide we can estimate the width of the floor planks as between 3” to 4”. Conveniently, the item is positioned at the front edge of one plank and is just shy of the back edge of the fourth plank. This yields an estimate of just under 12” to just under 16”. Sincerely, RobT

3rd February 2024, 01:33 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Very interesting but it still does not resemble anything like the construction of the Somali {East African } shields we all more familiar with. Could the painting be Burmese ? I seen painted sticks. Still see a leather helmet the pad so the cone is not forced on your head.

4th February 2024, 05:03 AM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,360	Hi Rob, You have proposed an interesting origin for this shield. I hope the originator of this thread gets back to us shortly with the information that you requested. Sometimes other life issues get in the way of ethnographic arms and armour discussions and a prompt reply to questions asked.

6th February 2024, 03:47 PM	#8
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	apologies for the late reply. The shield diameter is 47 cm or 18.5 inches. The shield will be shipped to me later on and I can do more measurements, its currently in the care of my friend in the US, Nate Hope. Here are some thoughts, I believe its a shield and it being a hat (or a helm) is farfetched. I think so because the handles are too close to each other and too far up, along with the cushion which appears if its for a head, it wont do much cushioning. Unless its specifically was made for a person with an extremely long forehead and ears up high in their head. A feature I noticed is that the two straps are consistently made of different material and different fitting method in my shield and others shared by Gavin. It appears that one strap is made of leather and the other is made of wood fitted with two thin leather straps. The fact that its on the 3 items available for us to examine shows purposefulness and an odd option to do for a hat.