SPANISH BLADES 18TH C. -NEED ASSIST

Jim McDougall · 29th January 2024, 04:19 PM

Ulfberth, thank you so much for responding!
The exact topic I am researching does concern the use of rapiers in the colonies of Spain in the New World, however my focus is on Alta California from the 1780s into the 1840s.

We know that the traditional Spanish cup hilt remained in use quite late relative to the small sword which had evolved from the 17th c,with the French and Italian schools of fence predominating at open of 18th onward.

However as far as I have found, the cup hilt in the Americas was more confined in use to the Caribbean Spanish sphere, including the colonies from North America into South America. These were notably cruder than the refined and beautiful cup hilts of the 17th century, but maintained the traditional 'taza' (cup) so treasured by the Spanish swordsman.

The 'bilbo', or dragoon sword generally held as pattern of 1728 was actually in use earlier likely and ubiquitous throughout Spain and its colonies as the regulation sword well through the 18th into the 19th c.

In California, we know these were commonly present, and they became commonly rehilted with three bar cavalry hilts in the early 19th century as soldiers retired and became landed caballeros. Many of these were also rehilted with blades cut down into the popular machete form known as the espada ancha (which I recently wrote on in an article published in Sweden).

The question is:
Were long swords (i.e. full length small swords, also often termed rapiers) in any sort of abundance among colonists in California in the 1780s-1840s, and were there cases of their use in duels (in any degree) with the caballeros.?

There were no notable mentions of any such events in material I have found, and no instances of 'cup hilt rapiers'......however, we know the small sword (espadin) did have notable presence in the more populated presidio areas.

My interest in these 'other' sword centers in Spain is centered on the fact that California officers in this period were insisting on blades from other than Toledo because the Toledo blades would break.
This suggests there was some sort of active use of these swords other than periodic conflict with Indian groups...which may have included either some training with the sword, or even combative use (such as in duels).

You are totally right about the remarkably late use of swords in duels into modern times, and that in a way directly relates to my topic...the use of the sword in California in 1780s-1840s in possible dueling contact. These would have to have been small swords......or could the heavier cavalry swords have been used as well?

All best regards
Jim

Jim McDougall · 1st February 2024, 07:07 PM

In rereading this thread, I missed noting the important details on Valencia swordsmiths add Fernando added in his post which are profoundly salient in establishing not just which cities were concurrently producing blades along with Toledo....but the names specifically of makers.

In reading about the eventual collapse of the blade making industry in Toledo which took place over time in the 17th c. ...to read that when King Charles III in Spain tried to rebuild a factory there in 1760.....the SINGLE smith he could find was 70 year old Luis Calixto of VALENCIA ("By the Sword" , Richard Cohen, 2002. p.115).

It seems there were makers as well in the 16th-17th centuries in Seville and Valladolid; and according to other sources in the 18th century, Barcelona (which is of course Catalan) was a source more favored than Toledo for blades.

Other than the references in the Palomares nomina specifically noting Madrid and Zaragoza...it does seem Valencia was a most important center.

midelburgo · 7th April 2024, 10:57 PM

There are two nice Valencia rapiers pictured in Norman. From Paris invalides.

There are a couple of good books on the Catalonian side. The first one has some pictures of interesting models and marks, but after 1714. The second one is mostly about fireweapons.

The cover on one of the editions of Swords and hilt weapons has a nice Barcelona sword from XVIIIth century.

midelburgo · 8th April 2024, 02:30 AM

This is a smallsword from Valencia.

Dish attachment through 4 screws in a lozenge, as some 1728 cavalry swords.

midelburgo · 25th June 2024, 08:47 PM

I just discovered a book that can be of your interes.

pdf is available here

https://publicaciones.defensa.gob.es...ml?___store=es

https://publicaciones.defensa.gob.es..._comanches.pdf

Jim McDougall · 26th June 2024, 02:27 AM

Midelburgo, thank you so much for this, and the VALENCIA sword!!! It seems these are so little seen in our part of the world....not sure how often seen over there. I really appreciate all your input on this topic!

29th January 2024, 04:19 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,915	Ulfberth, thank you so much for responding! The exact topic I am researching does concern the use of rapiers in the colonies of Spain in the New World, however my focus is on Alta California from the 1780s into the 1840s. We know that the traditional Spanish cup hilt remained in use quite late relative to the small sword which had evolved from the 17th c,with the French and Italian schools of fence predominating at open of 18th onward. However as far as I have found, the cup hilt in the Americas was more confined in use to the Caribbean Spanish sphere, including the colonies from North America into South America. These were notably cruder than the refined and beautiful cup hilts of the 17th century, but maintained the traditional 'taza' (cup) so treasured by the Spanish swordsman. The 'bilbo', or dragoon sword generally held as pattern of 1728 was actually in use earlier likely and ubiquitous throughout Spain and its colonies as the regulation sword well through the 18th into the 19th c. In California, we know these were commonly present, and they became commonly rehilted with three bar cavalry hilts in the early 19th century as soldiers retired and became landed caballeros. Many of these were also rehilted with blades cut down into the popular machete form known as the espada ancha (which I recently wrote on in an article published in Sweden). The question is: Were long swords (i.e. full length small swords, also often termed rapiers) in any sort of abundance among colonists in California in the 1780s-1840s, and were there cases of their use in duels (in any degree) with the caballeros.? There were no notable mentions of any such events in material I have found, and no instances of 'cup hilt rapiers'......however, we know the small sword (espadin) did have notable presence in the more populated presidio areas. My interest in these 'other' sword centers in Spain is centered on the fact that California officers in this period were insisting on blades from other than Toledo because the Toledo blades would break. This suggests there was some sort of active use of these swords other than periodic conflict with Indian groups...which may have included either some training with the sword, or even combative use (such as in duels). You are totally right about the remarkably late use of swords in duels into modern times, and that in a way directly relates to my topic...the use of the sword in California in 1780s-1840s in possible dueling contact. These would have to have been small swords......or could the heavier cavalry swords have been used as well? All best regards Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 29th January 2024 at 05:10 PM.

7th April 2024, 10:57 PM	#3
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 255	There are two nice Valencia rapiers pictured in Norman. From Paris invalides. There are a couple of good books on the Catalonian side. The first one has some pictures of interesting models and marks, but after 1714. The second one is mostly about fireweapons. The cover on one of the editions of Swords and hilt weapons has a nice Barcelona sword from XVIIIth century. Attached Images

8th April 2024, 02:30 AM	#4
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 255	This is a smallsword from Valencia. Dish attachment through 4 screws in a lozenge, as some 1728 cavalry swords. Attached Images

25th June 2024, 08:47 PM	#5
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 255	I just discovered a book that can be of your interes. pdf is available here https://publicaciones.defensa.gob.es...ml?___store=es https://publicaciones.defensa.gob.es..._comanches.pdf Attached Images

1st February 2024, 07:07 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,915	In rereading this thread, I missed noting the important details on Valencia swordsmiths add Fernando added in his post which are profoundly salient in establishing not just which cities were concurrently producing blades along with Toledo....but the names specifically of makers. In reading about the eventual collapse of the blade making industry in Toledo which took place over time in the 17th c. ...to read that when King Charles III in Spain tried to rebuild a factory there in 1760.....the SINGLE smith he could find was 70 year old Luis Calixto of VALENCIA ("By the Sword" , Richard Cohen, 2002. p.115). It seems there were makers as well in the 16th-17th centuries in Seville and Valladolid; and according to other sources in the 18th century, Barcelona (which is of course Catalan) was a source more favored than Toledo for blades. Other than the references in the Palomares nomina specifically noting Madrid and Zaragoza...it does seem Valencia was a most important center.

26th June 2024, 02:27 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,915	Midelburgo, thank you so much for this, and the VALENCIA sword!!! It seems these are so little seen in our part of the world....not sure how often seen over there. I really appreciate all your input on this topic!