Austrian hussar sabre for ID

awdaniec666 · 17th January 2024, 03:45 PM

I must say that I´m not convinced regarding the use of those nothces in fencing. This beeing said I´ll observe where this is going.

Jim McDougall · 17th January 2024, 06:32 PM

it does seem in more reading that Toledo activity did continue in degree past 1650, as per the dating of a number of authentic Spanish blades I found in references.

666, no problem with being skeptical on the notches (to create a 'barb' for wounding in dueling, not particularly fencing per se'). I admit being entirely skeptical for these clearly deliberate notches on swords pragmatically suggested for 'picking up items' as the notch is patently insufficient for such.

As for unusual 'tricks' and 'features' in the swordplay employed in dueling, these are of course known and understandable, but not particularly well documented any more than the legendary, 'botte secrete'.
In the 'Spanish fight', la Verdedara Destreza, the primary objective, as I have understood, was to disarm the opponent, or force concession. In most instances it would seem that protection of honor by satisfaction was the goal, and such wounding distractions would provide such release.

I think these are the perspectives to be considered, rather than the dramatic notion of such barbs/notches being intended to worsen wounds in a thrust, which is also as far as I can see, patently unnecessary.

That leaves very little room for a plausible explanation for this mysterious convention which seems to have quite deliberately placed on the blades of a good number of swords in Austria, France, Hungary, Netherlands in the early to mid 18th century, possibly later. In these cases, it would seem the feature was nominally placed in the blades with potential dueling in mind, regardless of such possibility.
With cavalry, especially the hussars, fashion and flamboyant allusion was important, so the notion of a 'dueling' notch on a mans blade......well, you see what I mean?

Victrix · 17th January 2024, 07:10 PM

Regarding the notches, I guess one should keep an open mind until theories can be disproven. Earlier in the thread one of our more esteemed experienced members mentioned notches on pallasches and mentioned in post #16 that he had not seen them on Austro-Hungarian sabres. He mentioned he had seen them on German swords as well. Then it seems there are some British and Dutch swords that have them as well. It should be realised that people often served in foreign armies to gain experience. So there could have been Germans serving in British or Dutch forces and notching their swords. You wonder what the authorities thought about the notches and whether regulations allowed it.

Interesting theory about notches used for duels. In Germanic countries they still have student fraternities devoted to sword duels. But wouldn’t Wagner have known about this? Also were pallasches really used in duels?? They look too clumsy to “fence” with, especially on foot.

Coincidentally, Santa gave me a notched sword for Christmas. I learned about the notches on this forum and thought it would be a nice example to have in my collection… More on that later. Then you can all start the debate on notches afresh.

fernando · 17th January 2024, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

... Then you can all start the debate on notches afresh.

...

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Jim McDougall · 17th January 2024, 08:55 PM

Absolutely good stuff Fernando!!! Your resources are outstanding and your command through them remarkable. I must say you've given me totally new perspective on the Toledo dilemma. It would seem that despite the Solingen incursion into the sword blade market share, there were some masters still active carrying the Toledo tradition.

On the notches, again, perspective.
For me at least, it has been a most constructive 'discussion' which has presented new insights into a perplexing mystery that has vexed me for over two decades. I am deeply grateful for the insights and opinions shared by the very well informed guys here!

regardless if a final solution is reached or not.

Victrix....REALLY, you got a notched saber from Santa? NO FAIR!
REALLY looking forward to more as promised.

fernando · 17th January 2024, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

it does seem in more reading that Toledo activity did continue in degree past 1650, as per the dating of a number of authentic Spanish blades I found in references...

In 1760, during a period in which Palomares and others intended to request the King to revive the factory, he has wrote in his report: "Es indudable que la Fabrica de espadas de Toledo floreció con gran fama hasta fin del siglo XVII"; meaning: There is no doubt that the Sword Factory of Toledo flourished with great fame until the end of the 17th century.
(Espaderos Toledanos by Esperanza Pedraza Ruiz).

17th January 2024, 03:45 PM	#1
awdaniec666 Member Join Date: May 2021 Location: Central Europe Posts: 174	I must say that I´m not convinced regarding the use of those nothces in fencing. This beeing said I´ll observe where this is going.

17th January 2024, 06:32 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	it does seem in more reading that Toledo activity did continue in degree past 1650, as per the dating of a number of authentic Spanish blades I found in references. 666, no problem with being skeptical on the notches (to create a 'barb' for wounding in dueling, not particularly fencing per se'). I admit being entirely skeptical for these clearly deliberate notches on swords pragmatically suggested for 'picking up items' as the notch is patently insufficient for such. As for unusual 'tricks' and 'features' in the swordplay employed in dueling, these are of course known and understandable, but not particularly well documented any more than the legendary, 'botte secrete'. In the 'Spanish fight', la Verdedara Destreza, the primary objective, as I have understood, was to disarm the opponent, or force concession. In most instances it would seem that protection of honor by satisfaction was the goal, and such wounding distractions would provide such release. I think these are the perspectives to be considered, rather than the dramatic notion of such barbs/notches being intended to worsen wounds in a thrust, which is also as far as I can see, patently unnecessary. That leaves very little room for a plausible explanation for this mysterious convention which seems to have quite deliberately placed on the blades of a good number of swords in Austria, France, Hungary, Netherlands in the early to mid 18th century, possibly later. In these cases, it would seem the feature was nominally placed in the blades with potential dueling in mind, regardless of such possibility. With cavalry, especially the hussars, fashion and flamboyant allusion was important, so the notion of a 'dueling' notch on a mans blade......well, you see what I mean?

17th January 2024, 07:10 PM	#3
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Regarding the notches, I guess one should keep an open mind until theories can be disproven. Earlier in the thread one of our more esteemed experienced members mentioned notches on pallasches and mentioned in post #16 that he had not seen them on Austro-Hungarian sabres. He mentioned he had seen them on German swords as well. Then it seems there are some British and Dutch swords that have them as well. It should be realised that people often served in foreign armies to gain experience. So there could have been Germans serving in British or Dutch forces and notching their swords. You wonder what the authorities thought about the notches and whether regulations allowed it. Interesting theory about notches used for duels. In Germanic countries they still have student fraternities devoted to sword duels. But wouldn’t Wagner have known about this? Also were pallasches really used in duels?? They look too clumsy to “fence” with, especially on foot. Coincidentally, Santa gave me a notched sword for Christmas. I learned about the notches on this forum and thought it would be a nice example to have in my collection… More on that later. Then you can all start the debate on notches afresh.

17th January 2024, 08:55 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Absolutely good stuff Fernando!!! Your resources are outstanding and your command through them remarkable. I must say you've given me totally new perspective on the Toledo dilemma. It would seem that despite the Solingen incursion into the sword blade market share, there were some masters still active carrying the Toledo tradition. On the notches, again, perspective. For me at least, it has been a most constructive 'discussion' which has presented new insights into a perplexing mystery that has vexed me for over two decades. I am deeply grateful for the insights and opinions shared by the very well informed guys here! regardless if a final solution is reached or not. Victrix....REALLY, you got a notched saber from Santa? NO FAIR! REALLY looking forward to more as promised.