Pedang.....Mataram blade?

A. G. Maisey · 4th January 2024, 09:19 PM

Jim, I do appreciate your compliment, but in all honesty I must tell you that my memory sucks. Big time. I have difficulty remembering what I had for lunch yesterday. Ask me how much money I have in my pocket --- no idea at all.

My memory has never been that great, & it has only gotten worse as I have become older. My brother has a good memory, he used to be able to remember page numbers and paragraph placements & content of things he had read maybe years before. My memory functions like a library alpha-numeric system, it tells me where to find the info I need. Like an index.

But memory is not much involved in what I've written about your pedang, the scabbard work & design is something I can ID without difficulty, & the blade type is not something rare & unusual.

No memory, just familiarity with the field.

Interested Party · 4th January 2024, 11:40 PM

It is a random pattern, correct? Is this one that has changed significantly with repeated cleanings?

Jim McDougall · 5th January 2024, 04:51 AM

Alan.......the volume of what you may have forgotten is more than most will ever know! I've known you too long to think otherwise

I.P... excellent questions. On an old blade such as this apparently is, it would seem that the oiling treatments and reactions might alter somewhat the patterns or pamor inherent in it. As I have understood, while the pamor is of course 'random' in notable degree, it is the character of these various recognized pamors that correspond to the traditional beliefs in this culture.

I find these definitions of the character of each fascinating, and would like to know which of the pamor groups and significance might apply here.

Peter Andeweg · 5th January 2024, 10:52 AM

Hello!

I believe the 'pedang' is Sumatran, traditionally washed and traditionally forged blade. I don't think there was a specific type of pamor constructed, but just made in the traditional way. Some symbols are forged into pedang blades such as 'Batu lapak', but it seems mostly a tradition of forging and strengthening the blade. Similar blades with a small fuller on the forte are often dated around the 18th century. This blade could be genuinely 18th century in my opinion.

The hilt seems a stylistic version of a 'makara', also often seen on Sumatran swords. Mostly varying in different motifs.

A. G. Maisey · 5th January 2024, 07:42 PM

Jim, it is a random pattern, some people would perhaps give it as kulit semangka (ngulit semongko) others would give it as wos wutah (beras wutah).

I favour wos wutah.

I doubt that much material has been lost from this blade, tosan aji other than keris, & sometimes tombak, are not subjected to the repeated washing & staining that keris get, the pamor plates are still largely undamaged, I believe that if felt with light passing of the finger tips along the blade, the pamor would feel relatively smooth if compared with the usual keris blade feel, this type of pamor seldom erodes to the same extent as some other types of pamor material.

Peter, this is most definitely a Javanese pedang, there can be no question of this. The blade is a common style in Jawa, the recent dress is Javanese, the dress was made in Solo by m'ranggi Agus Irianto, AKA Agus Warongko, the style of dress is generic, the pommel interpretation that I have given can be supported by similar stylized interpretations of the Rojomolo that are found in carvings of various types that were and are produced in & for Solo consumption. The Rojomolo is woven into the culture of Solo.

In respect of both surface manipulated pamor mlumah, and pamor miring, when these pamors are found in a pedang blade, that pedang is usually taken to have been made as pusaka or as an item of dress, not as a weapon of war.

Pamor miring in particular does not have any strengthening effect in blade construction, surface manipulated pamor mlumah also has no strengthening effect. The common random pattern does act to support the steel core, manipulated patterns tend to weaken a blade.

The pamor motif Batu Lapak is often the result of the tang having been attached after the body of the blade has been forged but not yet subjected to the necessary cold work. This type of construction is common in old thrusting weapons, but is seldom found in slashing & cutting weapons, as it tends to weaken a blade.

4th January 2024, 09:19 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,018	Jim, I do appreciate your compliment, but in all honesty I must tell you that my memory sucks. Big time. I have difficulty remembering what I had for lunch yesterday. Ask me how much money I have in my pocket --- no idea at all. My memory has never been that great, & it has only gotten worse as I have become older. My brother has a good memory, he used to be able to remember page numbers and paragraph placements & content of things he had read maybe years before. My memory functions like a library alpha-numeric system, it tells me where to find the info I need. Like an index. But memory is not much involved in what I've written about your pedang, the scabbard work & design is something I can ID without difficulty, & the blade type is not something rare & unusual. No memory, just familiarity with the field.

4th January 2024, 11:40 PM	#2
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 498	It is a random pattern, correct? Is this one that has changed significantly with repeated cleanings?

5th January 2024, 04:51 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Alan.......the volume of what you may have forgotten is more than most will ever know! I've known you too long to think otherwise I.P... excellent questions. On an old blade such as this apparently is, it would seem that the oiling treatments and reactions might alter somewhat the patterns or pamor inherent in it. As I have understood, while the pamor is of course 'random' in notable degree, it is the character of these various recognized pamors that correspond to the traditional beliefs in this culture. I find these definitions of the character of each fascinating, and would like to know which of the pamor groups and significance might apply here.

5th January 2024, 10:52 AM	#4
Peter Andeweg Member Join Date: Feb 2020 Location: Vlissingen, Netherlands Posts: 71	Hello! I believe the 'pedang' is Sumatran, traditionally washed and traditionally forged blade. I don't think there was a specific type of pamor constructed, but just made in the traditional way. Some symbols are forged into pedang blades such as 'Batu lapak', but it seems mostly a tradition of forging and strengthening the blade. Similar blades with a small fuller on the forte are often dated around the 18th century. This blade could be genuinely 18th century in my opinion. The hilt seems a stylistic version of a 'makara', also often seen on Sumatran swords. Mostly varying in different motifs.

5th January 2024, 07:42 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,018	Jim, it is a random pattern, some people would perhaps give it as kulit semangka (ngulit semongko) others would give it as wos wutah (beras wutah). I favour wos wutah. I doubt that much material has been lost from this blade, tosan aji other than keris, & sometimes tombak, are not subjected to the repeated washing & staining that keris get, the pamor plates are still largely undamaged, I believe that if felt with light passing of the finger tips along the blade, the pamor would feel relatively smooth if compared with the usual keris blade feel, this type of pamor seldom erodes to the same extent as some other types of pamor material. Peter, this is most definitely a Javanese pedang, there can be no question of this. The blade is a common style in Jawa, the recent dress is Javanese, the dress was made in Solo by m'ranggi Agus Irianto, AKA Agus Warongko, the style of dress is generic, the pommel interpretation that I have given can be supported by similar stylized interpretations of the Rojomolo that are found in carvings of various types that were and are produced in & for Solo consumption. The Rojomolo is woven into the culture of Solo. In respect of both surface manipulated pamor mlumah, and pamor miring, when these pamors are found in a pedang blade, that pedang is usually taken to have been made as pusaka or as an item of dress, not as a weapon of war. Pamor miring in particular does not have any strengthening effect in blade construction, surface manipulated pamor mlumah also has no strengthening effect. The common random pattern does act to support the steel core, manipulated patterns tend to weaken a blade. The pamor motif Batu Lapak is often the result of the tang having been attached after the body of the blade has been forged but not yet subjected to the necessary cold work. This type of construction is common in old thrusting weapons, but is seldom found in slashing & cutting weapons, as it tends to weaken a blade.