Hunting sword - Hirschfanger for comments

fernando · 25th December 2023, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Is the handle of this hanger porcelain? I had thought tortoise shell at a glance....

My friend thinks it has to do with some horn material; maybe deer antler !

Jim McDougall · 25th December 2023, 04:34 PM

From Bruno Thomas & Ortwin Gamber, "Jahrbuch des Kunsthitorischen Museums in Wien 1937 to 1955". as cited in
"imperial Austria: Treasures of Art, Arms and Armor from the State of Styria"
Musueum of Fine Arts, Houston, 1992:

"...they convincingly explained that rather than being mere accessories, weapons are themselves artistic creations that reflect larger stylistic tendancies of a period".

The nobility and gentry of Europe, much as characteristic of most civilized societies, were well aware of fashion, style and curiosities, and the 'hunt' was more of a 'field exercise' of court assembly and event.

There was of course notable competition among these figures who eagerly sought to impress others and themselves with unique, sometimes dramatic, elements reflecting these, of course on their weapons.

Blackmore (op. cit. 1971, p.36-38) notes, '...towards the end of the 17th c. TORTOISE SHELL obtained from the hawkesbill turtle native to Asian tropical waters began to be imported into Europe. The chief advantage of this malleable material was the ease with which it could be shaped, molded, impressed or inlaid with decoration".

However it goes on to describe just how rarely this material was used on weapons, but usually more common on accessories such as snuff boxes and sundry items. .......BUT, there were a few weapons in which it was used.

Porcelain seems to have produced primarily in the Chantilly and St. Cloud factories in France.

The influences of the Orient were as noted, gaining popularity in Europe with the Dutch East India Co. being a primary source. The gold and silver alloy called 'shakudo' while being a Japanese product was originally thought to be associated with the style termed 'Tonquinese' . Tonquin , Annam was a province in now Viet Nam under Chinese control and later French colonial.
The shakudo was apparently produced for the VOC at their factory in Deshima Japan, an island off the mainland.

European hilt makers seem to have actually brought in Chinese artisans for produce hilts and mounts for many of the eagerly desired 'exotic' weapons in the 18th c.

While obviously a Chinese Qing era saber, this example of much earlier blade remounted, probably diplomatically or presentation oriented, using tortoise shell material, probably first half 19th c.

kai · 26th December 2023, 07:40 PM

Quote:

My friend thinks it has to do with some horn material; maybe deer antler !

Well, antler is bone - not any horn material...

This criss-cross pattern is not tortoise shell IMHO. To me, this looks like a paint job (there was a special technique being utilized - its name eludes me right now): The fading of the dark pattern along the facet ridges is the major hint (worn through).

Close-ups (in focus) would be good!

Regards,
Kai

fernando · 27th December 2023, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

... Well, antler is bone - not any horn material...

So sorry for the idiomatic expression ?

" Antler = each of the branched 'horns' on the head of an adult deer (typically a male one), which are made of bone and are grown and cast annually "

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

... The criss-cross pattern is not tortoise shell IMHO...

Visibly not !

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

... To me, this looks like a paint job (there was a special technique being utilized - its name eludes me right now): The fading of the dark pattern along the facet ridges is the major hint (worn through)...

Maybe done with some kind of acid (?) that keeps it resitant to wearing for a long period ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Close-ups (in focus) would be good!..

I will ask for those; but this person only depends on his cell phone camera !

fernando · 29th December 2023, 03:34 PM

The best possible ...

-

Interested Party · 30th December 2023, 01:17 PM

I can see it being a stag handle with these pictures. The shell guard of horsemen and dogs is an interesting and appropriate motif. This guard was cast? A knotwork of protection spells engraved on the blade. Thank you for the pictures.

Jim McDougall · 30th December 2023, 04:56 PM

The reason I added the image of the tortoise shell material of a Chinese sword in the unnoticed post I placed previously was to illustrate the effect of yellow color highlighted with brown patches. Somehow it just seemed in line with the yellowish toned material here which is staghorn or buckhorn most likely (not sure of the proper zoological term) which has indeed been painted or highlighted ...
.......
Could it be that the idea was to imitate the tortoise shell effect seen on some Chinese arms?

The elements of rococo decoration in the 18th century often included those of 'chinoiserie' (in the Chinese manner) and it seems faux material decoration was popular through the 18th c. While usually applied to steel or iron, the browning or russeting seems at hand in this example.

In Europe, 'orientalism' was in the height of fashion and popularity, and the curious talismanic charms and mysticism became well represented in the intaglios of themes on blades. The trellis type cross hatching and entwined vegetal decoration IMO has to do with that of talismanic devices and sigils with origins in Eastern Europe which came into France and Germany.

While it would seem strange that protective amulets etc. would be needed in the hunt, there was a good deal of danger from wounded and enraged animals as well as many other potential accidents. The invoking for success in the hunt was also a factor.

I agree this is likely from German states in mid 18th c.

The reason that court and hunting swords are so inherently difficult to identify and classify in these periods is that they were typically commissioned by individuals to cutlers who were jewelers and precious metals artisans. Thus more often than not they were essentially 'one off', though following popular themes and decorative devices.

fernando · 30th December 2023, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...The reason I added the image of the tortoise shell material of a Chinese sword in the unnoticed post I placed previously ...

Sure it was noticed Jim; only the point was missed ... i guess

.

Interested Party · 31st December 2023, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The reason I added the image of the tortoise shell material of a Chinese sword in the unnoticed post I placed previously was to illustrate the effect of yellow color highlighted with brown patches. Somehow it just seemed in line with the yellowish toned material here which is staghorn or buckhorn most likely (not sure of the proper zoological term) which has indeed been painted or highlighted ...

In Europe, 'orientalism' was in the height of fashion and popularity, and the curious talismanic charms and mysticism became well represented in the intaglios of themes on blades. The trellis type cross hatching and entwined vegetal decoration IMO has to do with that of talismanic devices and sigils with origins in Eastern Europe which came into France and Germany.

While it would seem strange that protective amulets etc. would be needed in the hunt, there was a good deal of danger from wounded and enraged animals as well as many other potential accidents. The invoking for success in the hunt was also a factor.

Definitely not unnoticed Jim. You said it all, so I just listened and learned. I have been curious if this pattern isn't burned into the antler, but maybe it is closer to a dying process akin to modern jigged bone that changes the color of bone to match stag.

As far as the knotwork goes it can be traced back at least to iron or bronze age Celtic culture and was in early Germanic cultures as well (I can cite cite illuminations in old and middle English texts for this). I think the area between the two cultures is now considered fuzzier than historians believed 50 years ago.

In European doctrine are you not supposed to pray before beginning all endeavors (I forget the chapter and verse). So, it is logical that protection as well as guidance is always needed.

Happy new year!

25th December 2023, 04:34 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,581	From Bruno Thomas & Ortwin Gamber, "Jahrbuch des Kunsthitorischen Museums in Wien 1937 to 1955". as cited in "imperial Austria: Treasures of Art, Arms and Armor from the State of Styria" Musueum of Fine Arts, Houston, 1992: "...they convincingly explained that rather than being mere accessories, weapons are themselves artistic creations that reflect larger stylistic tendancies of a period". The nobility and gentry of Europe, much as characteristic of most civilized societies, were well aware of fashion, style and curiosities, and the 'hunt' was more of a 'field exercise' of court assembly and event. There was of course notable competition among these figures who eagerly sought to impress others and themselves with unique, sometimes dramatic, elements reflecting these, of course on their weapons. Blackmore (op. cit. 1971, p.36-38) notes, '...towards the end of the 17th c. TORTOISE SHELL obtained from the hawkesbill turtle native to Asian tropical waters began to be imported into Europe. The chief advantage of this malleable material was the ease with which it could be shaped, molded, impressed or inlaid with decoration". However it goes on to describe just how rarely this material was used on weapons, but usually more common on accessories such as snuff boxes and sundry items. .......BUT, there were a few weapons in which it was used. Porcelain seems to have produced primarily in the Chantilly and St. Cloud factories in France. The influences of the Orient were as noted, gaining popularity in Europe with the Dutch East India Co. being a primary source. The gold and silver alloy called 'shakudo' while being a Japanese product was originally thought to be associated with the style termed 'Tonquinese' . Tonquin , Annam was a province in now Viet Nam under Chinese control and later French colonial. The shakudo was apparently produced for the VOC at their factory in Deshima Japan, an island off the mainland. European hilt makers seem to have actually brought in Chinese artisans for produce hilts and mounts for many of the eagerly desired 'exotic' weapons in the 18th c. While obviously a Chinese Qing era saber, this example of much earlier blade remounted, probably diplomatically or presentation oriented, using tortoise shell material, probably first half 19th c. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 26th December 2023 at 05:09 AM.

29th December 2023, 03:34 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	The best possible ... - Attached Images

30th December 2023, 04:56 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,581	The reason I added the image of the tortoise shell material of a Chinese sword in the unnoticed post I placed previously was to illustrate the effect of yellow color highlighted with brown patches. Somehow it just seemed in line with the yellowish toned material here which is staghorn or buckhorn most likely (not sure of the proper zoological term) which has indeed been painted or highlighted ... ....... Could it be that the idea was to imitate the tortoise shell effect seen on some Chinese arms? The elements of rococo decoration in the 18th century often included those of 'chinoiserie' (in the Chinese manner) and it seems faux material decoration was popular through the 18th c. While usually applied to steel or iron, the browning or russeting seems at hand in this example. In Europe, 'orientalism' was in the height of fashion and popularity, and the curious talismanic charms and mysticism became well represented in the intaglios of themes on blades. The trellis type cross hatching and entwined vegetal decoration IMO has to do with that of talismanic devices and sigils with origins in Eastern Europe which came into France and Germany. While it would seem strange that protective amulets etc. would be needed in the hunt, there was a good deal of danger from wounded and enraged animals as well as many other potential accidents. The invoking for success in the hunt was also a factor. I agree this is likely from German states in mid 18th c. The reason that court and hunting swords are so inherently difficult to identify and classify in these periods is that they were typically commissioned by individuals to cutlers who were jewelers and precious metals artisans. Thus more often than not they were essentially 'one off', though following popular themes and decorative devices. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 30th December 2023 at 05:07 PM.

30th December 2023, 01:17 PM	#6
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 509	I can see it being a stag handle with these pictures. The shell guard of horsemen and dogs is an interesting and appropriate motif. This guard was cast? A knotwork of protection spells engraved on the blade. Thank you for the pictures.