Basket hilt Sword for discussion

Norman McCormick · 5th December 2023, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Why do you say that, Norman ? Now how do we have to put up whit his stardom ?

.

Hi Fernando,
Don't be modest, you have a star quality yourself

which I'm sure is equally appreciated.

Kind Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 5th December 2023, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Fernando,
Don't be modest, you have a star quality yourself

which I'm sure is equally appreciated.

Kind Regards,
Norman.

Oh ... Norman; i like your Scottish humor

.

Jim McDougall · 6th December 2023, 02:30 PM

Wheres the Drambuie!!!!

Norman McCormick · 6th December 2023, 05:27 PM

Need you ask !!!

M ELEY · 6th December 2023, 09:12 PM

I am very grateful for all of the great minds coming in on this thread! As a lover of baskets, but a relative minor leaguer with input and examples to show, I enjoy absorbing all of the knowledge you folks have to offer! This is indeed an exceptional Glascow basket and can only hope it will be cherished as the rare example that it is (i.e. I'd give anything for an example such as this!!).

A good question was raised concerning the 'other type' of basket hilt, the Sinclaire. It would seem there are a lot of these popping up lately and IMHO, many might be more 'modern' than represented. I feel Jim is correct that there appears to be no direct source material for rhese fascinating swords, which is a pity. Perhaps other Forumites who have examples can add them here so we can compare? I know I've seen a few members with them...as long as it doesn't detract from the original thread, that is!

Jim McDougall · 9th December 2023, 04:57 PM

Thank you so much for joining us on this thread Capn! This is a fascinating example of a 'Glasgow' style basket hilt, and the thing about these kinds of examinations is that there is ALWAYS something further.

In this case, the blade, which has the distinctive mark of the crescent or half moon, which is a marking generally held to have been used by the 'espaderos del Rey' in Spain. This was typically used in conjunction with the makers own punzone, much as in the manner of silversmiths having several markings in their work, the hallmark, year and assayers mark.

Naturally, the half moon became seen as an indicator of high quality for obvious reasons, so was readily copied spuriously by German smiths, who were well known for also using well known Toledo marks and names.

While browsing through 'The Plug Bayonet" by the late R.D.C. Evans, looking through the profusely compiled plates of markings, there they were......in the British bayonet chapter.............TWO of these same almost silhouette half moon marks. Both were 17th c. of course, but unique in being pretty much solid, without 'rostrum' (the lighter inside outline), both to unidentified cutler and rare.

What I am wondering is, would it be possible that these blades might have filtered through the British networks that were importing blades out of Germany in the 17th century? In the case of my 'mortuary' which is presumed c. 1640, it also has the Solingen ANDREA FERARA with the half moon on obverse side of blade.
In this case, I feel this is most certainly a Hounslow product, but with the 'Glasgow' , a blade, curiously WITHOUT the ANDREA FERARA appears on a Scottish sword.
In this paradox, it seems it should have been reversed, as the ANDREA FERARA was of course ubiquitous on basket hilts, but notably less on English swords.

The appearance of the half moon on these plug bayonets to an unidentified cutler simply indicates the circulation of imported (or smuggled) Solingen blades for swords, and the apparent use of the same marks by cutlers working at the time.

Conundrums indeed, but all part of the joy of traveling virtually into these times hoping to find answers, if not simply perspective.

Capn, one more note, the example you have with the incredible blade by Wundes with FOUR (count em) kings heads, is plenty to add!!!

On the 'SINCLAIR' , what is most important is the part played by these basket hilt sabers, often with heart shaped piercings which correspond to those on the Glasgow form shields. The 'Sinclair' term was simply taken by Victorian writers to memorialize George Sinclair who was killed in the tragic event in Norway during the Kalmar War.

M ELEY · 10th December 2023, 05:49 AM

Thanks for mentioning my basket, Jim. Many of the German-imported blades were completely unmarked, some with just 'Andrea Fererra', some with just the Wundes family king's head markings and some marked with all of the above! I was unaware of the obviously rare crescent moon markings on these. Very intriguing and important to note here for future collectors. Reminds me of the 'fleur de lis' stamps found on English swords from the mid/late 17th c (specifically the dog head/monster head naval types) that threw so many of us until we pinpointed that symbol also existing in British heraldry. The connection with these crescent shapes with German makers makes total sense as most Scottish baskets possessed imported blades-

6th December 2023, 05:27 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Need you ask !!! Attached Images

6th December 2023, 02:30 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Wheres the Drambuie!!!!

6th December 2023, 09:12 PM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	I am very grateful for all of the great minds coming in on this thread! As a lover of baskets, but a relative minor leaguer with input and examples to show, I enjoy absorbing all of the knowledge you folks have to offer! This is indeed an exceptional Glascow basket and can only hope it will be cherished as the rare example that it is (i.e. I'd give anything for an example such as this!!). A good question was raised concerning the 'other type' of basket hilt, the Sinclaire. It would seem there are a lot of these popping up lately and IMHO, many might be more 'modern' than represented. I feel Jim is correct that there appears to be no direct source material for rhese fascinating swords, which is a pity. Perhaps other Forumites who have examples can add them here so we can compare? I know I've seen a few members with them...as long as it doesn't detract from the original thread, that is!

9th December 2023, 04:57 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Thank you so much for joining us on this thread Capn! This is a fascinating example of a 'Glasgow' style basket hilt, and the thing about these kinds of examinations is that there is ALWAYS something further. In this case, the blade, which has the distinctive mark of the crescent or half moon, which is a marking generally held to have been used by the 'espaderos del Rey' in Spain. This was typically used in conjunction with the makers own punzone, much as in the manner of silversmiths having several markings in their work, the hallmark, year and assayers mark. Naturally, the half moon became seen as an indicator of high quality for obvious reasons, so was readily copied spuriously by German smiths, who were well known for also using well known Toledo marks and names. While browsing through 'The Plug Bayonet" by the late R.D.C. Evans, looking through the profusely compiled plates of markings, there they were......in the British bayonet chapter.............TWO of these same almost silhouette half moon marks. Both were 17th c. of course, but unique in being pretty much solid, without 'rostrum' (the lighter inside outline), both to unidentified cutler and rare. What I am wondering is, would it be possible that these blades might have filtered through the British networks that were importing blades out of Germany in the 17th century? In the case of my 'mortuary' which is presumed c. 1640, it also has the Solingen ANDREA FERARA with the half moon on obverse side of blade. In this case, I feel this is most certainly a Hounslow product, but with the 'Glasgow' , a blade, curiously WITHOUT the ANDREA FERARA appears on a Scottish sword. In this paradox, it seems it should have been reversed, as the ANDREA FERARA was of course ubiquitous on basket hilts, but notably less on English swords. The appearance of the half moon on these plug bayonets to an unidentified cutler simply indicates the circulation of imported (or smuggled) Solingen blades for swords, and the apparent use of the same marks by cutlers working at the time. Conundrums indeed, but all part of the joy of traveling virtually into these times hoping to find answers, if not simply perspective. Capn, one more note, the example you have with the incredible blade by Wundes with FOUR (count em) kings heads, is plenty to add!!! On the 'SINCLAIR' , what is most important is the part played by these basket hilt sabers, often with heart shaped piercings which correspond to those on the Glasgow form shields. The 'Sinclair' term was simply taken by Victorian writers to memorialize George Sinclair who was killed in the tragic event in Norway during the Kalmar War.

10th December 2023, 05:49 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thanks for mentioning my basket, Jim. Many of the German-imported blades were completely unmarked, some with just 'Andrea Fererra', some with just the Wundes family king's head markings and some marked with all of the above! I was unaware of the obviously rare crescent moon markings on these. Very intriguing and important to note here for future collectors. Reminds me of the 'fleur de lis' stamps found on English swords from the mid/late 17th c (specifically the dog head/monster head naval types) that threw so many of us until we pinpointed that symbol also existing in British heraldry. The connection with these crescent shapes with German makers makes total sense as most Scottish baskets possessed imported blades-