'Rose' Mark on the spine of Solingen blades

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I would note that the blades by Thomas Gill, who initiated the so called 'sword scandal' in 1790s was a Birmingham maker, as was James Wooley who both produced officers sabers without the blued and gilt decoration typically, and used their own blades, as far as I have known.

At the time, British cutlers were complaining about the tariffs on blades imported from Solingen. They argued that British-produced blades were sub-standard to the German ones. Thomas Gill contested this, claiming that blades produced by him were every bit, if not better than German made blades. He tried on several occasions to have his claim tested by the Ordinance board until finally, the East India Trading company agreed to conduct a test involving swords produced by him, Wooly and supplied by Runkel.

Not surprisingly (possibly because the designer of the testing machine was a close friend of his) Thomas Gill's swords came out on top with a very low failure rate. Next were Runkels' imports. Woollys swords came last, with well over half failing the test.

What followed was a lengthy exchange of letters published in the local papers between Gill and Woolly.

Of interest is the time when Runkel was caught falsifying his import documentation to reduce the duty cost. Some 5,000 blades were confiscated and bladesmiths such as Gill then petitioned to have the blades given to them as compensation.

Interestingly, these tests do not appear to have dented Woolly's reputation, as they remained one of the prominent bladesmiths of the time. Regarding the decoration, they produced blades for the government (remember that regular cavalry soldiers were still supplied their swords by the government), East India Company and private purchase officers. It's pretty common to find officer blades by Woolly that have been decorated in blue and guilt, with their logo on them.

[urbanspaceman]

Here is another little something from my book on the Shotley Bridge swordmakers:

Around 1830, an interesting story is told by an Oley descendant regarding his father (3rd generation William Oley) to travelling chronicler William Hone who was visiting Shotley Bridge:
"James Justice Runkel, a German pedlar, who travelled in this country with his various wares, smuggled over from the continent a quantity of sword-blades, and, with a view of legalizing them and giving them currency, he applied to the father of my informant for permission to put his name upon them. This was accordingly done, and they were sold under the name of Oligar (sic). But government ultimately detected the fraud, and Oley gave evidence in London that the blades had not issued from his manufactory at Shotley."

History: In 1787, Runkel was brought to trial at the Court of Exchequer for the alleged undervaluing of imported goods. The trial did not run to completion, but concluded when Runkel agreed to settle and pay two thirds of the value of the confiscated swords, as well as all court costs and expenses. His payment came to £1,480.00: a sum that would be worth around £172,600 in today’s money.

You will appreciate, I am sure, that in 1787, the Oleys were suppliers of substantial quantities of blades and were, incidentally, regarded nationwide as the producers of the finest quality blades... as you would expect.

In regard to Thomas Gill and sons: where did they learn to forge fine quality blades?

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

In regard to Thomas Gill and sons: where did they learn to forge fine quality blades?

Thomas Gill's father was a maker of fine tools and files, Thomas continued that business before branching out to sword making. He was also quite an innovator so there is a fair chance he was partially self-taught since he would have an excellent understanding of the base metal working skills.

[Hotspur]

I only have one of my own. This seems to be the largest assortment in one place but I think we need to better sort the pile by rose variety, then common (which is a complicated description of its own).

A for instance here, Schnitzler&Kirschbaum, furnishing swords. Supplying swords. Producing swords. K&S, Kirshbaum&Shimmelbusch producing swords. Runkle, producing, etc, ad nauseam. Langham has regarded the matters somewhat the same. How much actual work was going on in house?

There are two different S&K 'roses' in this thread. What should that tell us?

I still think the adopted 'rose' jargon regards the various massive forge complexes supplying blades and foundries supplying castings. An edit to consider that maybe we are looking at the B&G artists themselves, labeling their work.



The W. on a blade speaks volumes to me but it is an entirely different discussion. Another link in a chain answering a question for me (re; Widmann). Yup, that's German work

Lots of nice piccies, I'll post my one (listen, no one likes their baby regarded as ugly)

Cheers
GC