'Rose' Mark on the spine of Solingen blades

[Radboud]

If other members have their own examples of late 18th to early 19th-century Solingen-made blades, I would love to see their markings to expand on the sample size.

[Jim McDougall]

This is a magnificent topic and thread! Thank you!
I had asked about the 'ROSE', or what appears to be a floral/vegetal device on the spine of blades near the hilt, and in some arcane fashion as shown in these examples.
Now that I see the context, I am curious on that these seem to appear on blades on French swords, or in European armies' swords during Napoleonic period.
There was mention of these devices being used on Solingen made blades.

I had thought that most blades on French swords of these times were from Klingenthal and of course so marked on the blade spines.

Is it possible that alternatively the blades with these devices on the spines had to do with Caissagnard in Nantes, who embellished blades with certain esoteric and cosmological themed motif?
It seems these blades could have come from Solingen? but would the motif including the 'rose' have been applied in Solingen? then these blades were fitted there.

I am looking forward to other examples of swords with this floral device on the blade spine, and more on these details. Thank you for this thread!

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Now that I see the context, I am curious on that these seem to appear on blades on French swords, or in European armies' swords during Napoleonic period.
There was mention of these devices being used on Solingen made blades.

I have seen other British swords non-Runkel blades that have the Rose, I just don't have one in my collection unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I had thought that most blades on French swords of these times were from Klingenthal and of course so marked on the blade spines.

Only the ones made for the French army needed to be marked on the spine with the manufacturers' name (this includes some Solingen-made An XI light cavalry trooper swords).

Officers' private purchase of swords may or may not be marked, and many blades were imported to meet the demand for blades. Also I say the sword is French, but it could have just as easily belonged to one of the officers from another nation serving in the French Army.

As a side note, I have seen one pamphlet addressed to French officers following the invasion and take over of Solingen, translations for French to German sword terms for those looking to buy a new sword

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Is it possible that alternatively the blades with these devices on the spines had to do with Caissagnard in Nantes, who embellished blades with certain esoteric and cosmological themed motif?

I personally believe that Caissagnard was a cutler and assembled swords from purchased parts rather than manufacture them. I don't believe that the iconography seen on his swords started with him, as there are a lot of variations found on other swords. I suspect he was following the fashion of the time.

I have one Caissagnard blade and the spine is clear of markings.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It seems these blades could have come from Solingen? but would the motif including the 'rose' have been applied in Solingen? then these blades were fitted there.

I am looking forward to other examples of swords with this floral device on the blade spine, and more on these details. Thank you for this thread!

Looking at the swords with the remaining blue and gilt, I believe that many blades were exported pre-decorated and sold to cutlers who would then fit them to hilts and scabbards.

[Radboud]

Looking through my reference photos I'm seeing a lot of early British swords with Solingen blades but not many where they provide photos of the spine. That said here are a few I did find.

Nice circa 1770 Georgian Horse Grenadiers sword:



Cartouche



Rose Mark



And another from the same era:

Georgian Cavalry Officer's sword


Cartouche


Rose Mark


British Lions' head pommel sabre


Typical Solingen cartouche


No Rose Mark or retailer, just Solingen

[corrado26]

There is a book published in 1885 showing all blade sins of Solingen since the oldest times, but these "Rose" signs are not to be found. So I think it is very doubtful if these roses are typical or special Solingen signs.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by corrado26

There is a book published in 1885 showing all blade sins of Solingen since the oldest times, but these "Rose" signs are not to be found. So I think it is very doubtful if these roses are typical or special Solingen signs.

Respectfully I disagree, all the blades I have shown have the cartouche on the ricasso and either Solingen on the spine or a rose. These cartouches are not found on British or French-produced blades.

In the case of the S&K marked swords, we know the Solingen-based retailer that exported the rose-marked blades. Plus there are I.C.B marked smallswords with this cartouche (but no rose because of the trefoil blades):

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by corrado26

There is a book published in 1885 showing all blade sins of Solingen since the oldest times, but these "Rose" signs are not to be found. So I think it is very doubtful if these roses are typical or special Solingen signs.

Italian officers sabre
Circa 1790-1800 with Garde de Perle style hilt and horse hair pommel cap.



Cartouche
Square cartouche at the ricasso with Solingen engraved in one side and S & J or S & K on the other.


Rose Mark
Rose mark on the spine of the blade


Interestingly with this sabre, the blade decoration is more bespoke than normally seen

[Jim McDougall]

As with most things, variation and exception are a constant, and with the Solingen situation, it was a manufacturing center for blades, which involved many makers, shops and artisans. Naturally there may have been cases of specific completed swords in which entire decorated blades were mounted there. However, this, in my opinion was one of the exceptions.

To the case in point, I dont believe that the decorative 'rose' images inscribed on the blade spines at the forte were ubiquitous enough in such blades which might have been applied in Solingen to designate them as a 'Solingen' affectation. In most of the cases by the examples shown, they seem to be aligned with French officers swords of 18th c into 19th along with armies associated with the French. As we agree, the blades on these were likely acquired by Caissagnard, and certainly other furbishers, for mounting.

If in some cases, these cutlers had found artisans in Solingen to apply particular decoration, this would not be surprising, however this would be an incidental case, and not supportive of these decorations being a collectively used decoration or certainly not a certain makers indicator from Solingen in specific.

The 18th century was a time where there was a fascination with mysticism, the occult, magic and of course talismanic symbolism oddly combined with superstitious notions and religious invocations. These kinds of elements were attractive to Europeans who regarded the exotica of oriental fashions, weaponry and symbolism as formidable and even fearsome. This was what inspired the concepts of light cavalry, particularly hussars, and led to the notorious 'pandours' of the Austrian armies of the mid 18th c.
These forces were primarily Hungarian and Croatian, and adopted the colorful oriental fashion and arms, which with their known depredations rendered them much feared.

Hungarian swords, much as Polish, often had themes in their decoration of military regalia, arms, and religious symbolism, as prevalent in the Holy Roman Empire. The 'arm in the cloud' notably religious and becoming a familiar heraldic charge, became such an element copied to the west in France, and Germany. Here I would note the use of the 'Turks head', the turbaned figure also used in East Europe, and was among the prevalent element in the Caissagnard themes. The sun and moon figures also came from East Europe, and were actually ancient devices from early tribal histories in Hungary, though I cannot resist the similarity to the 'tarot' card art. ...well aligned with the occult themes of the 18th c.

So these decorative blade conventions traveled through Europe of course including cases in Solingen but most blades made there were simply marked with punzones. The famed 'running wolf' of Passau, began used on blades by contract to certain Passau armorers; the 'ANDREA FERARA' for blades primarily consigned to Scotland (many to England as well); the SAHAGUM (in variation) mostly to Northern Europe.
Many blades used spurious Spanish punzones along with marks intended for espaderos del Rey, incongruently which along with incorrect wording, spelling etc. belied the Solingen origins of these blades.

I am far from claiming metallurgical knowledge or metal processing, but the use of Indian steel (wootz) was indeed widespread, but not necessarily used as such in Viking swords, which were actually mostly from the Rhineland using pattern welded processes. While a great deal of credit is given to key ore deposits around Toledo, Solingen etc. much of the steel used in forging was imported in ingots from locations in Sweden, as one example. It is not to say iron deposits were not present in or around these centers, just that the smelting processes were often supplanted by imported steel in ingots.

These are mostly just my understanding of various aspects of topics we are discussing, and as always, exchanging of these kinds of details give us a better perspective in reaching at least somewhat more comprehensive scope on them.
This along with the remarkable examples being shown is outstanding!

[Radboud]

Probably South German light cavalry officers' sabre (Bavaria, Wurttemberg, Hesse)



Not the best photos, but you can make out the cartouche and a hint of the rose mark




Saxon Light Cavalry officers sabre


Cartouche


Rose Mark


Source: Saxon Napoleonic era Officer's Sabre

And this sabre, I have it as German, but the style could be French as well, especially with that carp's tongue point.



Cartouche


Rose and S&K retailers mark.
This rose appears to be different from my S&K marked sabre. Different bladesmith?