THE BORDER REIVERS.

urbanspaceman · 29th October 2023, 10:45 AM

Hi Peter. Is this not a Hounslow Hanger.
Did it evolve from 16th C. Cavalry swords perhaps?

Peter Hudson · 29th October 2023, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Hi Peter. Is this not a Hounslow Hanger.
Did it evolve from 16th C. Cavalry swords perhaps?

Hello Keith, Some say that Whinjer is a corruption of the word Hanger. I suppose it could be a Hanger although in the case of the user..The Border Reiver would rename ...and often remake/ remodel weaponry as were available This would include reforming agricultural tools, axes and all manner of readily available blades although some ...such as their Officers or those with money could afford expensive items such as pistols....and expensive swords etc. I am sure those Reivers that went off to fight in European wars would have brought back many weapons from there.

Regards, Peter.

urbanspaceman · 31st October 2023, 01:01 PM

Actually, the blade on the above is longer than was typical of Hounslow hangars but the hilt is absolutely typical.
I've never considered where that style of hilt came from, despite it being quite unique to my inexperienced eye.
If the sword you posted does, in fact, date from the 1500s, then we have a line of development that is well worth exploring.
If you are there Jim, perhaps you can shed some light here as well.

urbanspaceman · 31st October 2023, 01:17 PM

This stimulates another related issue regarding what I always considered a Hounslow hangar that has ANNO 1553 on both sides of the blade (see attached).
This figure relates to the date of our briefest reigning monarch: Lady Jane, just 16 years old when she inherited the throne, reigning for only 9 days before being executed within the year.
I thought the style of sword and blade was typical of Hounslow and the numbers on the blade talismanic (although the word ANNO does rather contradict that) but perhaps this is not the case... any input here would be greatly appreciated.

fernando · 31st October 2023, 01:41 PM

I would say definitely not talismanic nor cabalistic. It might not necessarily be the date the blade was forged, but most certainly a tribute to the ephemeral Queen.

urbanspaceman · 31st October 2023, 03:02 PM

Hello Fernando.
Thank-you, yes, we are in agreement.

Jim McDougall · 1st November 2023, 01:18 AM

Im late in on this, but most interesting. The 'whinger' term is as suggested a variation of the 'hanger' term if have understood most references, with terms for these types of swords sometimes being 'cutlass' as well.

The type swords with these distinct style hilts with pommel cap, a downturned counter guard, knuckleguard etc seem to have been an English form of 1640s, perhaps slightly earlier and used well through the century. Some references have classified somewhat later examples (Hounslow effectively ended around mid 17thc) as of 'Hounslow school'.

This is my example, it is noted that Hounslow often produced these with serrated back edge for maritime use...note the distal third of the blade resembles the other blade posted (Peter, your #71), also slightly wider. ..also the familiar 'running wolf' suggesting numbers of blades indeed were coming in from Solingen.
The story of the German smiths who came to England at the beckon of the King used the running wolf spitefully toward their Solingen guilds, but it seems not the case, and many of them signed their blades with Anglicized names.

With the ANNO 1553, this numeric combination does not seem to correspond to the talismanic combinations typically known, and the 'anno' term, as noted would defeat such suggestion. However with the Solingen running wolf, and upside down in the proper Solingen convention, this seems likely another spurious Solingen combination, and not surprising to be seen in Hounslow context.

Jim McDougall · 1st November 2023, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

Hello Keith, Some say that Whinjer is a corruption of the word Hanger. I suppose it could be a Hanger although in the case of the user..The Border Reiver would rename ...and often remake/ remodel weaponry as were available This would include reforming agricultural tools, axes and all manner of readily available blades although some ...such as their Officers or those with money could afford expensive items such as pistols....and expensive swords etc. I am sure those Reivers that went off to fight in European wars would have brought back many weapons from there.

Regards, Peter.

I think the idea to move the Hounslow topic to its own thread was a great idea Keith, as that deserves more specific research and discussion. As Peter has noted here, the 'Reivers' context seems to have included a good number of innovative armorers who repurposed and fashioned various arms for use. As noted, the weaponry of 'foreign ' origins likely not only were brought back as whole, but influences and components formed the basis for many Reiver weapons.
As with most armies of these times, the groups comprising the Reiver entity were of a notable range of means, and would be armed accordingly.

Peter Hudson · 1st November 2023, 02:55 PM

I must place this video expertly done to illustrate how Border Reivers spread across the landscape in Ulster ... A brilliant video in my view.

please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx5LKbRjSG8

Peter Hudson.

Jim McDougall · 3rd November 2023, 10:58 AM

In hopes of keeping this valuable thread going, before continuing writing I went back to read through the content, and realize even more how fascinating this relatively obscure history of Great Britain really is!

To reiterate the identity and character of the 'riding' families, the term rider I think comes from the German 'reiter' (=horseman) and with the Reivers mounted on their maneuverable and hearty ponies, they were incredibly formidable in their raiding (the term reive =raiding).

Reading through the captivating pages of "The Reivers" by Alistair Moffat, 2008, the content literally grabs you as the book is laid out in text with blocked references to key descriptions rather than footnotes or tedious paragraphs.

For example, notes on the long leather, metal studded coats that served as armor, and called 'jack'.......I found that when cut down for mounted wear, it became a 'jacket'. There are countless bits of this kind of information revealing how much of the colorful and intriguing language, terms, nicknames etc came from the culture of these people.

In recent discussions, there has been focus on the swords used by the Reivers, and it is noted that these men had a most 'cosmopolitan' taste in weaponry, certainly from forays into foreign campaigns as mercenaries.
Moffat notes that weapons from Germany and Italy were indeed 'imported' or brought back, and that local armorers often made their own versions of these as well as various armor items etc.

Most often seen were the types of basket style hilts from North Europe known as dusagge or Sinclair which also were influencing English basket hilts. These circulating through these regions became the prototypes for the famed Highland hilts (termed Irish hilts in those times), while some of the Sinclair type versions were deemed 'schiavona' like.

While the Reivers' period effectively ended in 1603 when James IV took the throne, and essentially dismissed the border, now terming the former border lands the 'middle shires'...he took to persecution of these families and harshly prosecuting any 'lawlessness'. However, of course, the Reiver identity remained profoundly intact, and continued in degree regardless.

Returning to weapons discussions, on swords and the 'whinger' term:
From a previous post,
"whineyard, whinyard, or Scottish 'whinger' ..defined by Minsheu (Compendium, 1625) as 'a hanger'.

From: "Hunting Weapons", H.L.Blackmore, 1971, p.14

Peter Hudson · 4th November 2023, 01:36 AM

Please see https://www.historytoday.com/miscell...-united-states from which I QUOTE" But perhaps the most vivid vignette of the borderers’ enduring influence on America came via George MacDonald Fraser’s description – in his introduction to his study of the border Reivers The Steel Bonnets – of that moment in 1969 when the descendants of ‘three notable Anglo-Scottish Border tribes’ gathered for the US presidential inauguration in Washington DC, with Lyndon Johnson handing over to Richard Nixon in the presence of Billy Graham (while at Cape Canaveral, another descendent of the borderers, Neil Armstrong, prepared himself for the Apollo 11 Space Mission). Johnson with his ‘lined, leathery Northern head and rangy, rather loose-jointed frame’, and Nixon’s ‘blunt, heavy features, the dark complexion, the burly body, and the whole air of dour hardness’ which was, in MacDonald Fraser’s view, ‘as typical of the Anglo-Scottish frontier as the Roman Wall’. "UNQUOTE.

Regards,Peter Hudson.

29th October 2023, 10:45 AM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	picture Hi Peter. Is this not a Hounslow Hanger. Did it evolve from 16th C. Cavalry swords perhaps?

31st October 2023, 01:01 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Hounslow Hangar Actually, the blade on the above is longer than was typical of Hounslow hangars but the hilt is absolutely typical. I've never considered where that style of hilt came from, despite it being quite unique to my inexperienced eye. If the sword you posted does, in fact, date from the 1500s, then we have a line of development that is well worth exploring. If you are there Jim, perhaps you can shed some light here as well.

31st October 2023, 01:17 PM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	cont. This stimulates another related issue regarding what I always considered a Hounslow hangar that has ANNO 1553 on both sides of the blade (see attached). This figure relates to the date of our briefest reigning monarch: Lady Jane, just 16 years old when she inherited the throne, reigning for only 9 days before being executed within the year. I thought the style of sword and blade was typical of Hounslow and the numbers on the blade talismanic (although the word ANNO does rather contradict that) but perhaps this is not the case... any input here would be greatly appreciated. Attached Images

31st October 2023, 01:41 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A guess ... I would say definitely not talismanic nor cabalistic. It might not necessarily be the date the blade was forged, but most certainly a tribute to the ephemeral Queen.

31st October 2023, 03:02 PM	#6
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Hangar Hello Fernando. Thank-you, yes, we are in agreement.

1st November 2023, 01:18 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Im late in on this, but most interesting. The 'whinger' term is as suggested a variation of the 'hanger' term if have understood most references, with terms for these types of swords sometimes being 'cutlass' as well. The type swords with these distinct style hilts with pommel cap, a downturned counter guard, knuckleguard etc seem to have been an English form of 1640s, perhaps slightly earlier and used well through the century. Some references have classified somewhat later examples (Hounslow effectively ended around mid 17thc) as of 'Hounslow school'. This is my example, it is noted that Hounslow often produced these with serrated back edge for maritime use...note the distal third of the blade resembles the other blade posted (Peter, your #71), also slightly wider. ..also the familiar 'running wolf' suggesting numbers of blades indeed were coming in from Solingen. The story of the German smiths who came to England at the beckon of the King used the running wolf spitefully toward their Solingen guilds, but it seems not the case, and many of them signed their blades with Anglicized names. With the ANNO 1553, this numeric combination does not seem to correspond to the talismanic combinations typically known, and the 'anno' term, as noted would defeat such suggestion. However with the Solingen running wolf, and upside down in the proper Solingen convention, this seems likely another spurious Solingen combination, and not surprising to be seen in Hounslow context. Attached Images

1st November 2023, 02:55 PM	#9
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 315	The Ulster Reivers. I must place this video expertly done to illustrate how Border Reivers spread across the landscape in Ulster ... A brilliant video in my view. please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx5LKbRjSG8 Peter Hudson.

3rd November 2023, 10:58 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	In hopes of keeping this valuable thread going, before continuing writing I went back to read through the content, and realize even more how fascinating this relatively obscure history of Great Britain really is! To reiterate the identity and character of the 'riding' families, the term rider I think comes from the German 'reiter' (=horseman) and with the Reivers mounted on their maneuverable and hearty ponies, they were incredibly formidable in their raiding (the term reive =raiding). Reading through the captivating pages of "The Reivers" by Alistair Moffat, 2008, the content literally grabs you as the book is laid out in text with blocked references to key descriptions rather than footnotes or tedious paragraphs. For example, notes on the long leather, metal studded coats that served as armor, and called 'jack'.......I found that when cut down for mounted wear, it became a 'jacket'. There are countless bits of this kind of information revealing how much of the colorful and intriguing language, terms, nicknames etc came from the culture of these people. In recent discussions, there has been focus on the swords used by the Reivers, and it is noted that these men had a most 'cosmopolitan' taste in weaponry, certainly from forays into foreign campaigns as mercenaries. Moffat notes that weapons from Germany and Italy were indeed 'imported' or brought back, and that local armorers often made their own versions of these as well as various armor items etc. Most often seen were the types of basket style hilts from North Europe known as dusagge or Sinclair which also were influencing English basket hilts. These circulating through these regions became the prototypes for the famed Highland hilts (termed Irish hilts in those times), while some of the Sinclair type versions were deemed 'schiavona' like. While the Reivers' period effectively ended in 1603 when James IV took the throne, and essentially dismissed the border, now terming the former border lands the 'middle shires'...he took to persecution of these families and harshly prosecuting any 'lawlessness'. However, of course, the Reiver identity remained profoundly intact, and continued in degree regardless. Returning to weapons discussions, on swords and the 'whinger' term: From a previous post, "whineyard, whinyard, or Scottish 'whinger' ..defined by Minsheu (Compendium, 1625) as 'a hanger'. From: "Hunting Weapons", H.L.Blackmore, 1971, p.14

4th November 2023, 01:36 AM	#11
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 315	How Northern England Made the Southern United States Please see https://www.historytoday.com/miscell...-united-states from which I QUOTE" But perhaps the most vivid vignette of the borderers’ enduring influence on America came via George MacDonald Fraser’s description – in his introduction to his study of the border Reivers The Steel Bonnets – of that moment in 1969 when the descendants of ‘three notable Anglo-Scottish Border tribes’ gathered for the US presidential inauguration in Washington DC, with Lyndon Johnson handing over to Richard Nixon in the presence of Billy Graham (while at Cape Canaveral, another descendent of the borderers, Neil Armstrong, prepared himself for the Apollo 11 Space Mission). Johnson with his ‘lined, leathery Northern head and rangy, rather loose-jointed frame’, and Nixon’s ‘blunt, heavy features, the dark complexion, the burly body, and the whole air of dour hardness’ which was, in MacDonald Fraser’s view, ‘as typical of the Anglo-Scottish frontier as the Roman Wall’. "UNQUOTE. Regards,Peter Hudson.