1630s English basket hilts

Lee · 16th October 2023, 04:53 PM

The second hilt in Triarii's post above brought to mind this previously discussed basket hilt sword attributed to be of English origin: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25974

urbanspaceman · 17th October 2023, 02:14 PM

Thank-you Lee, this is good stuff.

dralin23 · 17th October 2023, 03:06 PM

I also have a beautiful motuary sword in my collection, here are some pictures of it. It was housed in an old armory for many years, which is why it is completely covered in a dark patina.

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2023, 05:35 PM

dralin,outstanding example of a 'mortuary' !! and all the better retaining that lovely patina! These swords regarded as 'half basket' were intriguing developments in these types close hilts evolving contemporary to the forms of full baskets. While we have discussed the terms for full basket hilts as 'Irish' "close' or 'basket hilt' for these, I wonder what term or if any of these were applied in vernacular of the time for these 'mortuaries'.
The 'mortuary' term is of course a Victorian 'collectors' term presuming the facial devices were 'deaths head' of Charles I (d.1649) but obviously misapplied as these hilts preceded that event by at least 10 years, and the motif was popular on various sword hilts.

Lee, that was an amazing thread from several years ago, and brings to mind an interesting aspect of the basket hilt conundrum, that of the Italian 'schiavona'. I note that these were not exclusive to Venice, but somewhat widely used throughout the Italian states.

The question was posed whether or not the schiavona was used or known in Great Britain, and of course with that, wondering if these may have been the influence for the Highland basket hilt. Naturally that theory has been long defeated as structurally the hilts are quite different, except obviously their closed nature.

However, when considering influences it is difficult to determine if some degree or notion of likenesses might have come into the process of development. We know that the Scots were noted as being ready mercenary forces, and that they had served in various European theaters and campaigns which certainly provided exposure to various weapon forms which they brought back.

While the 'basket' form hilt had been well developed in North Europe on the dusagge and so called 'Sinclair' types and is generally regarded as the key influence for the Highland basket hilt, it is clear that these types of close hilt were already well known in England.

The evolution of the well known trellis type basket of the schiavona seems to be contemporary with the evolution of these baskets in Europe and England if not perhaps slightly later.

Whether the schiavona was ever used in its developed form in Scotland or Great Britain is a good question, and as far as I have known, like many weapon forms, there was certainly incidental presence. In what I have learned of the famed 'Border Reivers' of North England and Scottish border regions, the schiavona was among the wide range of weaponry in use by them.

In Scotland, the fabled myth of ANDREA FERARA of course pertains to the Italian (Belluno) swordsmith of the 16th century, who with his brother indeed had contracts for blades with Scotland which evolved into the perplexing mystery of these ubiquitous signed blades which spanned over centuries.

Prince Charlie, Charles Edward Stuart, was born in Rome in 1720, with of course the distinct connection of the Catholic monarchy of the Stuarts to the Papacy.

These factors all suggest that the schiavona was certainly known in Great Britain, but likely had only minor influence on the developing basket hilts there in later periods, and again probably only incidental.

While off course a bit as to the original question, this pertains to the types of basket hilts either evolving or in place c. 1631, so salient to a degree.

dralin23 · 19th October 2023, 05:02 PM

hello jim,
Thank you for your very interesting explanation of the origins of this sword name. It was unknown to me and I hadn't researched it yet.
In any case, it is really instructive for me to explain that these masks or faces on the basket are supposed to be the head of the killed king.
In any case, there is always enough material left over to discuss and I'm also happy that you can learn completely new things about your swords here on the forum.

Jim McDougall · 19th October 2023, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dralin23

hello jim,
Thank you for your very interesting explanation of the origins of this sword name. It was unknown to me and I hadn't researched it yet.
In any case, it is really instructive for me to explain that these masks or faces on the basket are supposed to be the head of the killed king.
In any case, there is always enough material left over to discuss and I'm also happy that you can learn completely new things about your swords here on the forum.

Absolutely my pleasure!

and I learn from every example put up for discussion, the research, and sharing of information. I have always believed we all learn together here in these great threads. The notion of the 'death mask' is but one of the many fanciful notions created by early writers and extensions of popular lore surrounding historic lore and figures. These 'collectors terms' are many and always intriguing in how they came about.
Again, yours is a wonderful example.

urbanspaceman · 20th October 2023, 10:55 AM

Hi Jim.
Well mentioned; it has long been my belief that many Reivers carried a schiavona.
I am certain Peter has details of the mercenary activities of the disinherited and outlawed border clans who were available for hire abroad.
Equally, as you point out, the obsession with Andrea Ferara blades and Bonnie Prince Charlie strengthens the Italian connection.
I should add this into the mix:
It is interesting that the first nationwide mention of a basket hilt referred to it as "Irish" because there is also this recently suggested business of 'mortuary' hilts being made in Islay which was the original home of the Dalriadic tribes that encompassed North Eastern Eire as well as Argyle.
I'm sniffing around this issue.

17th October 2023, 02:14 PM	#2
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 616	archive reference Thank-you Lee, this is good stuff.

17th October 2023, 03:06 PM	#3
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 204	an other mortuary sword I also have a beautiful motuary sword in my collection, here are some pictures of it. It was housed in an old armory for many years, which is why it is completely covered in a dark patina. Attached Images

17th October 2023, 05:35 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Schiavona and influence on British or Scottish basket hilts dralin,outstanding example of a 'mortuary' !! and all the better retaining that lovely patina! These swords regarded as 'half basket' were intriguing developments in these types close hilts evolving contemporary to the forms of full baskets. While we have discussed the terms for full basket hilts as 'Irish' "close' or 'basket hilt' for these, I wonder what term or if any of these were applied in vernacular of the time for these 'mortuaries'. The 'mortuary' term is of course a Victorian 'collectors' term presuming the facial devices were 'deaths head' of Charles I (d.1649) but obviously misapplied as these hilts preceded that event by at least 10 years, and the motif was popular on various sword hilts. Lee, that was an amazing thread from several years ago, and brings to mind an interesting aspect of the basket hilt conundrum, that of the Italian 'schiavona'. I note that these were not exclusive to Venice, but somewhat widely used throughout the Italian states. The question was posed whether or not the schiavona was used or known in Great Britain, and of course with that, wondering if these may have been the influence for the Highland basket hilt. Naturally that theory has been long defeated as structurally the hilts are quite different, except obviously their closed nature. However, when considering influences it is difficult to determine if some degree or notion of likenesses might have come into the process of development. We know that the Scots were noted as being ready mercenary forces, and that they had served in various European theaters and campaigns which certainly provided exposure to various weapon forms which they brought back. While the 'basket' form hilt had been well developed in North Europe on the dusagge and so called 'Sinclair' types and is generally regarded as the key influence for the Highland basket hilt, it is clear that these types of close hilt were already well known in England. The evolution of the well known trellis type basket of the schiavona seems to be contemporary with the evolution of these baskets in Europe and England if not perhaps slightly later. Whether the schiavona was ever used in its developed form in Scotland or Great Britain is a good question, and as far as I have known, like many weapon forms, there was certainly incidental presence. In what I have learned of the famed 'Border Reivers' of North England and Scottish border regions, the schiavona was among the wide range of weaponry in use by them. In Scotland, the fabled myth of ANDREA FERARA of course pertains to the Italian (Belluno) swordsmith of the 16th century, who with his brother indeed had contracts for blades with Scotland which evolved into the perplexing mystery of these ubiquitous signed blades which spanned over centuries. Prince Charlie, Charles Edward Stuart, was born in Rome in 1720, with of course the distinct connection of the Catholic monarchy of the Stuarts to the Papacy. These factors all suggest that the schiavona was certainly known in Great Britain, but likely had only minor influence on the developing basket hilts there in later periods, and again probably only incidental. While off course a bit as to the original question, this pertains to the types of basket hilts either evolving or in place c. 1631, so salient to a degree.

20th October 2023, 10:55 AM	#7
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 616	Schiavona and Reiver Hi Jim. Well mentioned; it has long been my belief that many Reivers carried a schiavona. I am certain Peter has details of the mercenary activities of the disinherited and outlawed border clans who were available for hire abroad. Equally, as you point out, the obsession with Andrea Ferara blades and Bonnie Prince Charlie strengthens the Italian connection. I should add this into the mix: It is interesting that the first nationwide mention of a basket hilt referred to it as "Irish" because there is also this recently suggested business of 'mortuary' hilts being made in Islay which was the original home of the Dalriadic tribes that encompassed North Eastern Eire as well as Argyle. I'm sniffing around this issue.

16th October 2023, 04:53 PM	#1
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 937	The second hilt in Triarii's post above brought to mind this previously discussed basket hilt sword attributed to be of English origin: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25974

19th October 2023, 05:02 PM	#5
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 204	hello jim, Thank you for your very interesting explanation of the origins of this sword name. It was unknown to me and I hadn't researched it yet. In any case, it is really instructive for me to explain that these masks or faces on the basket are supposed to be the head of the killed king. In any case, there is always enough material left over to discuss and I'm also happy that you can learn completely new things about your swords here on the forum.