Tunisian or Libyan berber sword with scabbard

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by werecow

I bought myself some swords for my birthday (I shouldn't be spending money atm but there are SWORDS on the INTERNET! ), one of which was this Tunisian or nearby saber with a French blade and a nice scabbard (maybe from one of you? ). I thought I'd add it here since the swords themselves and particularly the scabbards seem rather rare and information seems scarce. I've tried to take pictures of both the decorative elements and some shots that might show a bit of the details of construction.

Some threads I found with swords of this type:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7429
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13911
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18663
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22054
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28537

Combination of my pics and the sellers because my camera sucks.

It occurred to me that, while the grips on these look rather phallic as a whole, given the North African provenance, the shape of the pommel might also have some connection to those of Jineta/Boabdil swords:



Has anyone else made this connection? Or am I just seeing things?

" ...discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen, and thinking what nobody else has thought".
-Albert von Szent-Gyorgy (1893-1986)

For more years that I can say, while observing these swords with this distinctive and apparently unique wood hilt style , nobody (including myself) has made this connection to the historic Nasrid (jineta) forms, at least that I can recall. It has always seemed these were deemed Tunisian, but quite frankly most of them came up amidst takouba and kaskara study, so were not focused on other than North African anomalies.

This observation is really well placed, and exciting to look further into the history of these swords, which have as noted, virtually no literature or published research, and only have cursory presence in various references.

These seem most likely reflecting the Zenata Berber traditions in a revival or commemorative sense, and these Berber tribes were situated in the Tunisian/Tripolitania/Libya regions in the Granadan Emirate period. After the Reconquista in the 15th century they moved westward into Algeria and Morocco.

With the French cavalry blade, the Saharan potential is clear, but these blades were pretty ubiquitous with French colonial presence, so its hard to use that as a classifying feature.

The anachronistic influences of weapons from Europe and the Iberian Peninsula on native weapon forms in North Africa are many and intriguing, and seeing this instance added to the list is great!

[werecow]

Thanks for your thoughts Jim!

Of course, my knowledge of this area of the world is quite limited, and I'm entirely going by geographical proximity and superficial similarity (and even then, when squinting). Some of these pommels resemble the Jineta shape much more than others, but all of them also admittedly have significant differences in shape (being flat, much more triangular, lobed, and frankly looking a bit penile in shape ), so there is also plenty of cause for skepticism and caution. Still, what similarity there is seemed interesting enough to warrant mentioning.

This may be a long shot given that so little is known about these, but are there any books or papers that deal with pre-19th century swords associated with the Berber tribes of north west Africa that I could check out to see if I might find any more robust connections to other hilt types?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by werecow

Thanks for your thoughts Jim!

Of course, my knowledge of this area of the world is quite limited, and I'm entirely going by geographical proximity and superficial similarity (and even then, when squinting). Some of these pommels resemble the Jineta shape much more than others, but all of them also admittedly have significant differences in shape (being flat, much more triangular, lobed, and frankly looking a bit penile in shape ), so there is also plenty of cause for skepticism and caution. Still, what similarity there is seemed interesting enough to warrant mentioning.

This may be a long shot given that so little is known about these, but are there any books or papers that deal with pre-19th century swords associated with the Berber tribes of north west Africa that I could check out to see if I might find any more robust connections to other hilt types?

Im sure there is notable anthropological literature on the tribes of the Berber confederation, but I rather doubt any specific attention to peculiarities of weaponry would be likely. While a great deal of attention is given to the social and cultural characteristics, seldom is attention applied to weapons, so all we can do is speculate much as you have done, quite effectively I must say.
Offhand I can recall some works by Carleton Coons (if memory serves) on Berber tribes of the Rif; and Nicolsen wrote extensively on the Tuaregs in which there were actually general notes on weapons.

While the Zeneta tribes removed to the Maghrabi areas during the 16th c. it seems of course that there would be residual contact with Tunisia etc. The cross diffusion with Saharan trade routes that existed from Tunisian areas from these early times into the 19th century of course confounds any sort of finite classification. It does seem as noted, the general consensus seems to hold to the Tunisian assessment.

The French blades moved broadly across the Sahara, and seem to occur often in the distinct sabers of the Manding in Mali as well as in many 'aljinaur' (=curved) tuareg style hilt takoubas.

I'll have to look further, consider my curiosity totally piqued!

[werecow]

It might also be worth noting a response from the seller, when I asked him about the scabbard and the origin of the sword:

Indeed, most often, it is said to be from Tunisia but I have never read a good explanation about that. The fact is in the past I found an old picture in a book (I can't remember which one but I am pretty sure the picture can be found online) that show a man selling arms in Tripoli at the late 19th century. And some of these swords were in the inventory. Also, the scabbard, is really like an Algerian work ; similar in construction to the sheath of the kodmi (knife from Bou Saadi). So, even if it is usually said to be from Tunisia, we can assume it could have been encountered from Algeria to Libya.

Note that the picture he's referring to is no doubt the one shown in one of the threads I've listed at the top of the page.

But I mention it mainly because I find his comment on the scabbard work resembling Algerian work interesting but I have no familiarity with kodmi knives, and I can't really find a lot of images of the scabbards that I can connect to what he's talking about, so I can't confirm (although it sounds plausible enough on the face of it given that they are all neighboring countries and Tunisia is relatively narrow).

Does anyone have an example of picture of a scabbard on a kodmi knife that demonstrates what he's talking about? The closest thing I could find is the one attached.

[kronckew]

As you indicate scabbard photos are rare, here is My Khodmi, to show its scabbard - someone added a sewing thimble as a chape.
The spine making on the french blade does seem to start with the "K" of Klingenthal. The beginning "Klin" is a bit worn. I've added another more legible version from another sabre.

[werecow]

Ah, right, I don't know why I thought that was spelled with a C.

Thanks for the kodmi scabbard pic. Still not entirely sure what the seller was referring to tbh. To me they look quite different but maybe I'm missing some context or overlooking some details of construction.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by werecow

...

Thanks for the kodmi scabbard pic. Still not entirely sure what the seller was referring to, tbh. To me, they look quite different, but maybe I'm missing some context or overlooking some details of construction.

I'm not sure what the Bou Saadi khodmi ref was either
Hopefully someone can shed some light on it. None of the khodmi knife scabbards we've seen in this thread remind me of the sabre scabbard in the earlier post.
Probably we shouldn't let it sidetrack us further without more info to relate them. I like that sabre and scabbard, it has a primitive bedouin look to it. I wonder if the colourful cloth/string knotwork on the scabbard is camel hair.