Tunisian or Libyan berber sword with scabbard

werecow · 7th October 2023, 02:52 PM

A few more photos. Inscription on the spine is a little hard to read but looks like Clingenthal.

Length in scabbard 98.5cm, length outside scabbard 97.5cm, hilt length 16.5cm. POB approx 19.5 cm from the cross. Difficult to measure the weight using the scales that I have as the sword twists due to the curvature, so I kind of had to suspend the scales across two little tables, but it seems to be around 515 gr outside the scabbard, and the scabbard reads 393 gr. The French blade has a lot of distal taper (from 9mm at the base to 3mm at the end of the fuller) and it feels quite light in spite of the forward POB. Blade width 32mm at the base. Grip is 33mm at the broadest point, 21mm across. Cross is 91mm wide.

werecow · 7th October 2023, 03:11 PM

A few more shots of the grip and cross. The pommel has a very slight twist, but whether this is just something that just happened over time or intentional is hard to say (probably just wear but I mention it anyway because it reminded me of Roland Warzecha's ideas about viking era sword pommels, as well as the twist to the pommel segments on the ethiopian gurade and shotel swords I've handled).

TVV · 8th October 2023, 04:32 PM

Congratulations on your acquisition. This is as nice as these sabers get, considering that yours also has the baldric preserved, which I have not seen before.

You might be on to something when it comes to comparing the pommel on these Tunisian swords and jinetas. I have one of these swords as well and the hilt is also wobbly, so it appears that this is a common feature of the hilt construction.

I love how these swords are a combination of imported European blades and very rustic North African fittings. The cloth in the scabbard seem looks like a local interpretation of Ottoman spiral stitching.

There is almost nothing known about these swords. They seem to have been confined to a small region in Tunisia and Tripoli and there is almost no literature on them, except Tirri, who lumps them with takoubas and a catalogue of Islamic arms in the Royal Armories which shows one with a straight, one sided blade. They are not common compared to other North African swords such as nimchas and flyssas, so getting to se more of them is always appreciated - thank you for sharing.

werecow · 8th October 2023, 09:24 PM

Yes they appear quite enigmatic.

One of very few swords that does not even seem to have its own collector's term besides "Tunisian berber sword". An English to Amazigh translator says the word for sword is ajenwi or ajnwi, so maybe in keeping with tradition that would be a good term?

Thanks for adding your own example! Very similar blades on these.

I like the decorative stitching very much and indeed the baldric is a large part of why I decided to go for this one. The leather does look like it is in danger of drying out (a small 1cm2 piece of it unfortunately came off in transit), so if anyone has any suggestions as to how to best preserve it I am all ears.

If not for the baldric and scabbard, I might have waited around for a silver hilted one (I know of one that I'd love to add here but I'll wait until the auction is over). I wonder if someone with expertise in silver work could tell us more about what tribe might have produced them?

It's remarkably light with that horn hilt. I thought maybe the grip would look clunky from the pictures, but in real life it actually looks quite modest and elegant.

Rick · 9th October 2023, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

The leather does look like it is in danger of drying out (a small 1cm2 piece of it unfortunately came off in transit), so if anyone has any suggestions as to how to best preserve it I am all ears.

Leather Therapy used for saddles and tack by equestrians.
Do a search.

werecow · 9th October 2023, 12:29 PM

Alright, will check that out, thanks.

Another question I had about these; on mine the protrusions from the guard towards the hand are rather subtle so they don't get in the way, but on TVV's example and some others they seem more substantial:

Does that get in the way of the hand at all when using a hammer grip? I'm wondering this shape it is a way of encouraging a saber grip, with the thumb and index finger nestled in the curves of the guard.

werecow · 10th October 2023, 12:28 AM

Actually, I think I had it the wrong way around; holding it again now, it feels wrong with saber grip (very insecure and oddly balanced for it) and it is actually when using the hammer grip that my fingers and the fleshy part between thumb and index finger nestle comfortably in those inner curves.

7th October 2023, 02:52 PM	#1
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 565	A few more photos. Inscription on the spine is a little hard to read but looks like Clingenthal. Length in scabbard 98.5cm, length outside scabbard 97.5cm, hilt length 16.5cm. POB approx 19.5 cm from the cross. Difficult to measure the weight using the scales that I have as the sword twists due to the curvature, so I kind of had to suspend the scales across two little tables, but it seems to be around 515 gr outside the scabbard, and the scabbard reads 393 gr. The French blade has a lot of distal taper (from 9mm at the base to 3mm at the end of the fuller) and it feels quite light in spite of the forward POB. Blade width 32mm at the base. Grip is 33mm at the broadest point, 21mm across. Cross is 91mm wide. Attached Images Last edited by werecow; 7th October 2023 at 03:20 PM.

7th October 2023, 03:11 PM	#2
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 565	A few more shots of the grip and cross. The pommel has a very slight twist, but whether this is just something that just happened over time or intentional is hard to say (probably just wear but I mention it anyway because it reminded me of Roland Warzecha's ideas about viking era sword pommels, as well as the twist to the pommel segments on the ethiopian gurade and shotel swords I've handled). Attached Images

8th October 2023, 04:32 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Congratulations on your acquisition. This is as nice as these sabers get, considering that yours also has the baldric preserved, which I have not seen before. You might be on to something when it comes to comparing the pommel on these Tunisian swords and jinetas. I have one of these swords as well and the hilt is also wobbly, so it appears that this is a common feature of the hilt construction. I love how these swords are a combination of imported European blades and very rustic North African fittings. The cloth in the scabbard seem looks like a local interpretation of Ottoman spiral stitching. There is almost nothing known about these swords. They seem to have been confined to a small region in Tunisia and Tripoli and there is almost no literature on them, except Tirri, who lumps them with takoubas and a catalogue of Islamic arms in the Royal Armories which shows one with a straight, one sided blade. They are not common compared to other North African swords such as nimchas and flyssas, so getting to se more of them is always appreciated - thank you for sharing. Attached Images

8th October 2023, 09:24 PM	#4
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 565	Yes they appear quite enigmatic. One of very few swords that does not even seem to have its own collector's term besides "Tunisian berber sword". An English to Amazigh translator says the word for sword is ajenwi or ajnwi, so maybe in keeping with tradition that would be a good term? Thanks for adding your own example! Very similar blades on these. I like the decorative stitching very much and indeed the baldric is a large part of why I decided to go for this one. The leather does look like it is in danger of drying out (a small 1cm2 piece of it unfortunately came off in transit), so if anyone has any suggestions as to how to best preserve it I am all ears. If not for the baldric and scabbard, I might have waited around for a silver hilted one (I know of one that I'd love to add here but I'll wait until the auction is over). I wonder if someone with expertise in silver work could tell us more about what tribe might have produced them? It's remarkably light with that horn hilt. I thought maybe the grip would look clunky from the pictures, but in real life it actually looks quite modest and elegant. Last edited by werecow; 8th October 2023 at 10:23 PM.

9th October 2023, 12:29 PM	#6
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 565	Alright, will check that out, thanks. Another question I had about these; on mine the protrusions from the guard towards the hand are rather subtle so they don't get in the way, but on TVV's example and some others they seem more substantial: Does that get in the way of the hand at all when using a hammer grip? I'm wondering this shape it is a way of encouraging a saber grip, with the thumb and index finger nestled in the curves of the guard.

10th October 2023, 12:28 AM	#7
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 565	Actually, I think I had it the wrong way around; holding it again now, it feels wrong with saber grip (very insecure and oddly balanced for it) and it is actually when using the hammer grip that my fingers and the fleshy part between thumb and index finger nestle comfortably in those inner curves.