THE BORDER REIVERS.

[Peter Hudson]

[Peter Hudson]

Attachment 231313Just sweeping back through the thread I noted references to Whinjer at 37,38 and 39...and just picked up a picture of what seems to be a Whinjer ...A curved sword often worn by Border Reivers. There arent a lot of these about...I suppose variations on a theme would include Sinclair or Storta etc?

[urbanspaceman]

Hi Peter. Is this not a Hounslow Hanger.
Did it evolve from 16th C. Cavalry swords perhaps?

[Peter Hudson]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Hi Peter. Is this not a Hounslow Hanger.
Did it evolve from 16th C. Cavalry swords perhaps?

Hello Keith, Some say that Whinjer is a corruption of the word Hanger. I suppose it could be a Hanger although in the case of the user..The Border Reiver would rename ...and often remake/ remodel weaponry as were available This would include reforming agricultural tools, axes and all manner of readily available blades although some ...such as their Officers or those with money could afford expensive items such as pistols....and expensive swords etc. I am sure those Reivers that went off to fight in European wars would have brought back many weapons from there.

Regards, Peter.

[urbanspaceman]

Actually, the blade on the above is longer than was typical of Hounslow hangars but the hilt is absolutely typical.
I've never considered where that style of hilt came from, despite it being quite unique to my inexperienced eye.
If the sword you posted does, in fact, date from the 1500s, then we have a line of development that is well worth exploring.
If you are there Jim, perhaps you can shed some light here as well.

[urbanspaceman]

This stimulates another related issue regarding what I always considered a Hounslow hangar that has ANNO 1553 on both sides of the blade (see attached).
This figure relates to the date of our briefest reigning monarch: Lady Jane, just 16 years old when she inherited the throne, reigning for only 9 days before being executed within the year.
I thought the style of sword and blade was typical of Hounslow and the numbers on the blade talismanic (although the word ANNO does rather contradict that) but perhaps this is not the case... any input here would be greatly appreciated.

[fernando]

I would say definitely not talismanic nor cabalistic. It might not necessarily be the date the blade was forged, but most certainly a tribute to the ephemeral Queen.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

Hello Keith, Some say that Whinjer is a corruption of the word Hanger. I suppose it could be a Hanger although in the case of the user..The Border Reiver would rename ...and often remake/ remodel weaponry as were available This would include reforming agricultural tools, axes and all manner of readily available blades although some ...such as their Officers or those with money could afford expensive items such as pistols....and expensive swords etc. I am sure those Reivers that went off to fight in European wars would have brought back many weapons from there.

Regards, Peter.

I think the idea to move the Hounslow topic to its own thread was a great idea Keith, as that deserves more specific research and discussion. As Peter has noted here, the 'Reivers' context seems to have included a good number of innovative armorers who repurposed and fashioned various arms for use. As noted, the weaponry of 'foreign ' origins likely not only were brought back as whole, but influences and components formed the basis for many Reiver weapons.
As with most armies of these times, the groups comprising the Reiver entity were of a notable range of means, and would be armed accordingly.

[Peter Hudson]

I must place this video expertly done to illustrate how Border Reivers spread across the landscape in Ulster ... A brilliant video in my view.

please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx5LKbRjSG8

Peter Hudson.

[Jim McDougall]

In hopes of keeping this valuable thread going, before continuing writing I went back to read through the content, and realize even more how fascinating this relatively obscure history of Great Britain really is!

To reiterate the identity and character of the 'riding' families, the term rider I think comes from the German 'reiter' (=horseman) and with the Reivers mounted on their maneuverable and hearty ponies, they were incredibly formidable in their raiding (the term reive =raiding).

Reading through the captivating pages of "The Reivers" by Alistair Moffat, 2008, the content literally grabs you as the book is laid out in text with blocked references to key descriptions rather than footnotes or tedious paragraphs.

For example, notes on the long leather, metal studded coats that served as armor, and called 'jack'.......I found that when cut down for mounted wear, it became a 'jacket'. There are countless bits of this kind of information revealing how much of the colorful and intriguing language, terms, nicknames etc came from the culture of these people.

In recent discussions, there has been focus on the swords used by the Reivers, and it is noted that these men had a most 'cosmopolitan' taste in weaponry, certainly from forays into foreign campaigns as mercenaries.
Moffat notes that weapons from Germany and Italy were indeed 'imported' or brought back, and that local armorers often made their own versions of these as well as various armor items etc.

Most often seen were the types of basket style hilts from North Europe known as dusagge or Sinclair which also were influencing English basket hilts. These circulating through these regions became the prototypes for the famed Highland hilts (termed Irish hilts in those times), while some of the Sinclair type versions were deemed 'schiavona' like.

While the Reivers' period effectively ended in 1603 when James IV took the throne, and essentially dismissed the border, now terming the former border lands the 'middle shires'...he took to persecution of these families and harshly prosecuting any 'lawlessness'. However, of course, the Reiver identity remained profoundly intact, and continued in degree regardless.

Returning to weapons discussions, on swords and the 'whinger' term:
From a previous post,
"whineyard, whinyard, or Scottish 'whinger' ..defined by Minsheu (Compendium, 1625) as 'a hanger'.

From: "Hunting Weapons", H.L.Blackmore, 1971, p.14