Toledo or Solingen marks

dralin23 · 2nd October 2023, 12:02 PM

hello

I also found an interesting sword a few months ago. A Shiavona sword has been on my wish list for a long time but if possible I wanted to find one that was stamped with a forge mark and preferably with a Solingen blade.
This sword has a beautiful basket handle from the early 17th century. and interestingly it is signed "Francesco"
"en toleto" and in addition the Solingen running wolf is struck on the blade in the usual form (upside down to the writing). So now the question is where was this blade really made? Was it a Solingen blacksmith who emigrated to Toledo and he traditionally put the running wolf into the blade or was it a Solingen blacksmith in Solingen who wanted to increase the value of his blade by missigning it as a blade from a blacksmith from the famous Toledo This can certainly be discussed for a long time or does someone have a similar blade in their collection so that one could assign this to "Franceco" from Toledo. I'm really looking forward to your answer.

fernando · 2nd October 2023, 12:25 PM

Dralin, do i read Francisco and not Francesco ?

. There are eight Franciscos listed in Toledan Palomares Nomina, but i am not suggesting that any of the them would be your smith. Remember, the personal marks they used were found on the blade (their art) and not on the guard. Still, can you enlarge that one ?

.

dralin23 · 2nd October 2023, 12:47 PM

hello ferando,
yes thats right the smith signed as "francisco" i will try to make an better pictures from this small mark at the hilt.

dralin23 · 2nd October 2023, 12:59 PM

With these Shiavona swords just like with some other sword types such as: All sorts of blades were used on the Scottish swords and also the Indian Firanghi swords and of course everyone wanted to have a blade from a famous blacksmith mounted in their sword. Andrea Ferrara must have worked for hundreds of years to produce the thousands of blades that bear his name.
I think this "Francisco" who made the blade for my sword was a Solingen blacksmith in Solingen who signed a Spanish-sounding name in order to be able to sell his blades better... because the Solingen blacksmiths who went to Toledo like Heinrich Coll
They didn't give up their last name and the blacksmiths from the well-known and famous Solingen blacksmith families were also proud of their blades and their names. So this blacksmith wasn't from a large and traditional family, I think...and I don't know how "Toledo" used to be in the 17th century. was written... but I've never seen it written in this for "TOLETO"... maybe you?

fernando · 2nd October 2023, 01:11 PM

Suppose literate smiths would favor the early Latin term TOLETUM

. TOLETO is obviously a misspell

.

dralin23 · 4th October 2023, 02:50 PM

hello fernado
I took a close-up of the two stamps that are on the basket of the handle.
But I think if you don't have a reference object, then you can't decipher them, they have become too unclear due to their age and use.
thank you, stefan

dralin23 · 4th October 2023, 02:50 PM

the pictures ....

fernando · 4th October 2023, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dralin23

... But I think if you don't have a reference object, then you can't decipher them, they have become too unclear due to their age and use...

Sure thing, Stefan. Thanks anyhow.

Victrix · 4th October 2023, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dralin23

hello fernado
I took a close-up of the two stamps that are on the basket of the handle.
But I think if you don't have a reference object, then you can't decipher them, they have become too unclear due to their age and use.
thank you, stefan

Presumably it’s the Lion of St.Mark, the mark of the Venetian Arsenale. See post #20: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=storta.

2nd October 2023, 12:02 PM	#1
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	also an intresting sword with an solingen mark.... hello I also found an interesting sword a few months ago. A Shiavona sword has been on my wish list for a long time but if possible I wanted to find one that was stamped with a forge mark and preferably with a Solingen blade. This sword has a beautiful basket handle from the early 17th century. and interestingly it is signed "Francesco" "en toleto" and in addition the Solingen running wolf is struck on the blade in the usual form (upside down to the writing). So now the question is where was this blade really made? Was it a Solingen blacksmith who emigrated to Toledo and he traditionally put the running wolf into the blade or was it a Solingen blacksmith in Solingen who wanted to increase the value of his blade by missigning it as a blade from a blacksmith from the famous Toledo This can certainly be discussed for a long time or does someone have a similar blade in their collection so that one could assign this to "Franceco" from Toledo. I'm really looking forward to your answer. Attached Images

4th October 2023, 02:50 PM	#6
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	the marks at the basket.. hello fernado I took a close-up of the two stamps that are on the basket of the handle. But I think if you don't have a reference object, then you can't decipher them, they have become too unclear due to their age and use. thank you, stefan

4th October 2023, 02:50 PM	#7
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	the pictures .... Attached Images

2nd October 2023, 12:25 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Dralin, do i read Francisco and not Francesco ? . There are eight Franciscos listed in Toledan Palomares Nomina, but i am not suggesting that any of the them would be your smith. Remember, the personal marks they used were found on the blade (their art) and not on the guard. Still, can you enlarge that one ? . Attached Images

2nd October 2023, 12:47 PM	#3
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	hello ferando, yes thats right the smith signed as "francisco" i will try to make an better pictures from this small mark at the hilt.

2nd October 2023, 12:59 PM	#4
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	With these Shiavona swords just like with some other sword types such as: All sorts of blades were used on the Scottish swords and also the Indian Firanghi swords and of course everyone wanted to have a blade from a famous blacksmith mounted in their sword. Andrea Ferrara must have worked for hundreds of years to produce the thousands of blades that bear his name. I think this "Francisco" who made the blade for my sword was a Solingen blacksmith in Solingen who signed a Spanish-sounding name in order to be able to sell his blades better... because the Solingen blacksmiths who went to Toledo like Heinrich Coll They didn't give up their last name and the blacksmiths from the well-known and famous Solingen blacksmith families were also proud of their blades and their names. So this blacksmith wasn't from a large and traditional family, I think...and I don't know how "Toledo" used to be in the 17th century. was written... but I've never seen it written in this for "TOLETO"... maybe you?

2nd October 2023, 01:11 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Suppose literate smiths would favor the early Latin term TOLETUM . TOLETO is obviously a misspell .