Strange long rapier

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

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Now thats interesting! No telling where these briquet hilts ended up. I always wonder if these strange combinations using them were perhaps ersatz weapons thrown together by local blacksmith/armorers....or other.

Not sure... The peen has the same patina as the blade so it may have been an old frankensword. But it does not seem to have been sharpened, so perhaps it was just cobbled together by a previous collector.

I mainly bought it because initially that photo was oriented vertically, and as I was looking at a closeup on my PC it just felt like I kept scrolling down along the blade forever. Basically it looks twice as long as it should be. Obviously it's no bigger than most other cavalry swords but the comparison with the small hilt makes the blade look huge.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by werecow

Not sure... The peen has the same patina as the blade so it may have been an old frankensword. But it does not seem to have been sharpened, so perhaps it was just cobbled together by a previous collector.

I mainly bought it because initially that photo was oriented vertically, and as I was looking at a closeup on my PC it just felt like I kept scrolling down along the blade forever. Basically it looks twice as long as it should be. Obviously it's no bigger than most other cavalry swords but the comparison with the small hilt makes the blade look huge.

I did realize this was pretty much a standard cavalry blade mid 19thc and resembles those on the M1840 US sabers (many blades were Solingen made). Whatever the case, this 'assembly' (like the psuedo espada ancha I posted) could not have been made for actual use. The M1840 was termed by the men 'the old wristbreaker' because of the long, heavy blade which required unique dexterity to handle properly, and typically there was insufficient training to achieve that.

With that in consideration, these brass briquet hilts barely functioned with any notable effect even with the short hanger blades they normally carried, so trying to handle one of these formidable cavalry blades to any effect would be terribly balanced.

In that light, it seems that these 'creative' anomalies, if legitimately assembled as composite in period, were most likely intended as accoutrements for wear in remote frontier regions, and not for actual combative use. The notion of 'wearing a sword' is a traditional gesture in many situations, much in the manner of those worn in Masonic regalia etc.

It is in this area that I have suggested this possibility with the 'rapier' in discussion. On that note, referring back to the 'frankensword', the M1840 blades were seldom sharpened as they were not typically used, even though 'worn' during the Civil War. In reading through medical histories of that period, it was noted there were hardly ever any wounds from sword cuts, and the only wounds associated with swords were blunt force trauma.

On the length of rapier blades issue, as Fernando has well noted, the blades of both Portuguese and Spanish rapiers often reached almost ridiculous lengths, to the point that royal intervention even tried to regulate the length of them. The one mentioned (132cm or over 51 inches) would have been virtually impossible to wield successfully in the French or Italian schools of fencing, and would have been more aligned with the mysterious Spanish 'destreza' style, which Im sure was equally practiced throughout the Iberian peninsula.
By the beginning of the 18th century, the 'destreza' method, known in the literature as 'the Spanish fight' had waned in the Peninsula, where the move to shorter (thus 'faster') blades and transitional rapiers (and small swords) became popular. However, in the colonies, the destreza continued much as the traditional affection for the cup hilt rapier remained steadfast well through the 18th even into early 19th c....thus my suggestion for this sword as a possibility. The style of the images resembles engraved motif on numerous edged weapons that are Mexican in origin.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... On the length of rapier blades issue, as Fernando has well noted, the blades of both Portuguese and Spanish rapiers often reached almost ridiculous lengths, to the point that royal intervention even tried to regulate the length of them. The one mentioned (132cm or over 51 inches) would have been virtually impossible to wield successfully in the French or Italian schools of fencing, and would have been more aligned with the mysterious Spanish 'destreza' style, which Im sure was equally practiced throughout the Iberian peninsula...

I would take it that, based on simple crude reality, those who fancied such limitless blades were by no means masters of 'dexterity' but searched for a way to keep their foe at distance; no fencing abilities at stake .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

I would take it that, based on simple crude reality, those who fancied such limitless blades were by no means masters of 'dexterity' but searched for a way to keep their foe at distance; no fencing abilities at stake .

That makes perfect sense. Various masters had varying opinions on blade length rather than a rigid following of specific principles of the system being used. The extraordinarily long blades however were awkward for wear, and it would seem equally difficult to use as you note and certainly would keep the opponent at distance.

Still these long Spanish blades were considered deadly and Spaniards were considered formidable duelists for the coolness they held in a match, which was due very much to the relatively rigid stance they held as they relied mostly on the effective guard positions for defense. My mention of dexterity was applied toward the heavy dragoon saber blades of the M1840, in which improper movements could actually injure the user.

In fencing, dexterity is of course the skill in defensive action using the blade as well as guiding it in the appropriate and effective attack, but certainly the longer blade affords a distinct advantage, despite lack of versatility.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I did realize this was pretty much a standard cavalry blade mid 19thc and resembles those on the M1840 US sabers (many blades were Solingen made). Whatever the case, this 'assembly' (like the psuedo espada ancha I posted) could not have been made for actual use. The M1840 was termed by the men 'the old wristbreaker' because of the long, heavy blade which required unique dexterity to handle properly, and typically there was insufficient training to achieve that.

I don't want to derail this thread too much, and I doubt frankensword was intended for use, but doesn't the M1840 have a hatchet point rather than a spearpoint?
It has Bleckmann, Solingen markings at the base of the blade, but nothing else. The blade is 3.3cm across at the base and 90cm long as measured from the cross to the point. It's also got a lot of distal taper (from 9mm at the base to 3.5mm at the end of the fuller and then down to 2mm near the tip), though it still balances at 19cm from the grip. But of course, the hilt is much lighter than that of some cavalry sabers. I was actually surprised at how light it felt (for the size) when I first held it. Not as terrible as it looks, at least.

Originally Posted by ulfberth

That is a 17th c blade !

That is interesting! I am curious about that decorated bit of ricasso with the two circular indentations. I've never seen that before. Does it have any sort of significance?

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by werecow

That is interesting! I am curious about that decorated bit of ricasso with the two circular indentations. I've never seen that before. Does it have any sort of significance?

A dagger I am working on has circles, within circles and the large one has six circles around that!
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=29211

I presume it to be an Italian blade. If it is a Makers trademark, I'd love to know.

Cheers
GC