Knife/dagger identification problem

[OsobistGB]

Originally Posted by gp

Interesting….you say first it is not Bosnian and later you say you can not define….

Either a woman is pregnant or not, but there does not exist something like a little pregnant…(defining it to yet a region….)

Nevertheless….I bought 2 out of 3 in Herzegovina…which is part of Bosnia now and in the past since the Kingdom of Tvurtko.

Than again a lot of folks from different etnicities lived in Bosnia and Hercegovina: Vlachs, Montenegrins, Serbian, Croation, Bosnian, Turkish, Albanian, Greek, Roma, Sephardic Jewish….hence many influences did enter, were taken over into different ways of live.
In a multicultural society like the Ottoman Balkans was, one must be careful to make such firm statements….


When you mention characteristics, mention them specifically and in detail, but I can assure you that there are also Austrian books on the Balkans from 1880 which mention characteristics dedicated to (perhaps) others….

Solun was not Greek but Macedonian with a first in the Balkans very heavy Sephardic population, which spread later to other countries an regions like Serbia, Dalmatia, BiH and so on …..

I can only claim where I did buy the knife…

Look...I have no desire to argue. You can believe whatever you want. The very fact that you claim that Thessalonica was Macedonian is indicative of your knowledge of history to me.
In my humble opinion, the knives you have shown are not typical Bosnian knives.

[gp]

Originally Posted by OsobistGB

Look...I have no desire to argue. You can believe whatever you want. The very fact that you claim that Thessalonica was Macedonian is indicative of your knowledge of history to me.
In my humble opinion, the knives you have shown are not typical Bosnian knives.

Neither do I wish to argue but have to say that I am very delighted and pleased by your most charming and very intelligent remark on your judgement of my knowledge

Kindly requested to provide me the characteristics of your determination as I am most eager to learn from your wisdom and also the literature where I can find this to add that / enlarge my small collection of books...

[TVV]

Ethnic attributions can be tricky and loaded with potential controversy. Geographically, I have seen a mention of "солунски ножове" (Thessalonica knives) in Bulgarian literature, and seems to refer to small knives with bone hilts with the solar decorative motive, like the second one from top to bottom on your stand.

Yours came from Herzegovina, which may mean that it was made there or it may mean that it simply ended up there at one point after being made elsewhere. I cannot claim anything conclusively, but I believe Osobist may be on to something in this case.

[OsobistGB]

Originally Posted by gp

Neither do I wish to argue but have to say that I am very delighted and pleased by your most charming and very intelligent remark on your judgement of my knowledge

Kindly requested to provide me the characteristics of your determination as I am most eager to learn from your wisdom and also the literature where I can find this to add that / enlarge my small collection of books...

As Theo mentioned, the topic is quite debatable. Also, having a lot of books does not automatically make us experts ....It takes a lot of time. Allow me the following provocative question...what would you describe this knife as?

[gp]

Originally Posted by OsobistGB

As Theo mentioned, the topic is quite debatable. Also, having a lot of books does not automatically make us experts ....It takes a lot of time. Allow me the following provocative question...what would you describe this knife as?

Books doesn't make an expert indeed, but can make us scolars and assist to distinguish between ignorance and knowlede. Quite some experts wrote books in the past, unfortunately not much on small / little cold weapons...
( except the fancy decorated ones, specially golden and belonging to the wealthy aga's or aristocrats and rich landowners).

In the Balkans ( Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia and Montengro) the last 10 years quite interesting publications and books have been published !

The hilt or grip looks like Balkan and can be seen on a lot of bichaqs but sadly seems to miss its ferrule like you can see here :

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=bichaq
or in my collection
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ion#post283727

But as for the blade, narrow and long, I can not say for sure as I have not seen this type that often; mostly at auction houses with fancy or strange description of origin...sometimes even as an African dagger :-)
being doubtful, I never touched them...


The type of scabbard I have seen some similar ones in Montenegrin ones but also Greek cold arms but that is a region I have limited knowledge on.

This specific one; although a nice scabbard, the knife looks incomplete to me (ferrule f.i.) , and hence I would not have it in my collection, no disrespect nor offence intended at all...

[OsobistGB]

Originally Posted by gp

Books doesn't make an expert indeed, but can make us scolars and assist to distinguish between ignorance and knowlede. Quite some experts wrote books in the past, unfortunately not much on small / little cold weapons...
( except the fancy decorated ones, specially golden and belonging to the wealthy aga's or aristocrats and rich landowners).

In the Balkans ( Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia and Montengro) the last 10 years quite interesting publications and books have been published !

The hilt or grip looks like Balkan and can be seen on a lot of bichaqs but sadly seems to miss its ferrule like you can see here :

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=bichaq
or in my collection
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ion#post283727

But as for the blade, narrow and long, I can not say for sure as I have not seen this type that often; mostly at auction houses with fancy or strange description of origin...sometimes even as an African dagger :-)
being doubtful, I never touched them...


The type of scabbard I have seen some similar ones in Montenegrin ones but also Greek cold arms but that is a region I have limited knowledge on.

This specific one; although a nice scabbard, the knife looks incomplete to me (ferrule f.i.) , and hence I would not have it in my collection, no disrespect nor offence intended at all...

I am surprised by the fact that you have a decent amount of Bosnian knives and still claim that the first three are from that region.Yes, in recent years, quite a few books have been published with pictures and information on the subject. The question is how many of them are written by professionals / historians / ethnographers and so on? And of course, they are very informative and useful, but personally I avoid using them as a bible. That is, they are not subject to doubt.
Regarding my knife...don't worry at all, you're not the only one who can't identify it. I have an affinity for mysterious objects Just wanted to illustrate that the obvious isn't always obvious

[Ian]

Osobist,

Your last item is very interesting. I'm not experienced at all in the subtleties of edged weapons from the Balkans and neighboring areas. However, I do like cross-cultural pieces and this particular item seems to be full of multicultural influences. The very nice sheath looks Greek to me, the hilt from Sarajevo or thereabouts, and the much sharpened blade from somewhere in the Mediterranean region. I don't know whether the sheath has always been with the knife but the hilt and blade seem to have had a long term relationship.

What are your thoughts on your knife?

[OsobistGB]

Originally Posted by Ian

Osobist,

Your last item is very interesting. I'm not experienced at all in the subtleties of edged weapons from the Balkans and neighboring areas. However, I do like cross-cultural pieces and this particular item seems to be full of multicultural influences. The very nice sheath looks Greek to me, the hilt from Sarajevo or thereabouts, and the much sharpened blade from somewhere in the Mediterranean region. I don't know whether the sheath has always been with the knife but the hilt and blade seem to have had a long term relationship.

What are your thoughts on your knife?

This part of the Ottoman Empire is extremely diverse in its ethnic composition.Craftsmen of various nationalities work in the main arms manufacturing centers
and acquired experience in the development of various types of items satisfying the current market needs. My humble opinion about this particular knife is that it was made in the Bay of Kotor/Boka kotorska/Bocche di Cattaro.I'm guessing its current form was re-struck after the hilt was repaired in a workshop somewhere in the northwest. I'm guessing its current appearance was changed after the handle was repaired in a workshop somewhere in the northwest by a craftsman working in the Bosnian style.This is how it should look without repair