The Knife Amnesty in the UK....the repercussions for edged weapons collectors

A. G. Maisey · 30th June 2006, 01:39 AM

Divide and conquer?

Yes.

But divide and rule is perhaps the more correct dictum.

There is no taking of control whilst the populace is otherwise occupied. That control is maintained by keeping the populace occupied with matters that prevent them from thinking about the management of their society by government.

What Barry has described is exactly the practical application of the principle.

However, whichever political party may appear to be managing government, that political party's leaders are themselves being managed by the people, groups of people, and organisations which are at the top of the societal tree.

Anybody here remember Vietnam?

Remember what happened to the Dow every time there were rumours of peace?

And what happened after each major offensive?

Where has the middle class in developed societies gone?

Does the period during which the decline of this middle class has occurred correspond to the period during which western capital has transferred its manufacturing operations to China, its administrative processes to India and Singapore, and whatever other transferable processes it can identify to places where wage rates are very much below what the wage rates are in developed countries?

What is the nature of the employment that remains available for the present and rising generations in developed countries?

Blind Freddy can see that there is no longer the foundation in industry nor commerce which produced the middle class that arose following the industrial revolution.

The wheel of history has turned and wealth, and along with it, position in society, is now in the process of polarising to the situation that was in place in Europe prior to the industrial revolution.

Before this polarisation is complete, there will be a lot of very unhappy people in the populations of the developed countries. If the elite wish to have a reasonable chance of controlling these people , and of managing the economies of these countries, it is necessary for the populations of these countries to be re-engineered into docility and obediance.

There are many tools that can be employed to achieve these ends, and one of these tools is the disarming of the populace. You cannot disarm any group of people that believes in the sanctity of weaponry, nor its necessity to maintain civilian life and protect personal property.

Thus, where a society is already very stable and well controlled, as it is in Australia, you can immediately indoctrinate the community, commencing in school, with the belief that only sociopaths and criminals possess any form of weapon.

Where a society is a little less well controlled, you need to create the conditions where people will believe in the lesser of two evils. By encouraging a proliferation of civilian weaponry in a society that already has severe social schism, and at the same time setting in place social policies that exacerbate that schism, ultimately you will produce a situation where murder and mayhem will become routine. At this point you offer the solution, and that solution will involve severe restrictions that would not be tolerated in a well ordered society.

Those of us with an interest in weaponry are simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. We probably all should have been born at least 100 years ago. We are dinosaurs, we all know what happened to the dinosaurs. But we are human dinosaurs, and as humans, we have the power of reason. We may not be able to stop the wheel of time from turning, but we can deduce what it may crush next, and we can step to one side. Along with our collections.

It is important, I believe, to view this entire process with an appreciation of the time frame that could be involved. I think world population is due to peak somewhere within the next 50 years or so. If China continues development at its present rate it will dominate world trade, and by extension, world economics and military power, within 20 to 30 years. Probably the completion of US societal re-engineering cannot be seriously advanced within a time frame that will impact greatly upon anybody reading this. However, there is no doubt that in the more ordered societies of Western Europe, and in my own country, Australia, we can expect to see a continued truncation of civil liberties.Within my lifetime I expect to see many of my present "privileges" (in this country we do not have "rights") reduced or removed. My age is 65.

Andrew · 30th June 2006, 03:19 AM

It's inevitable that this topic will slide inexorably toward politics. However, let's all please stay away from polarizing the discussion with references to "liberal/conservative" or party politics.

I know my request is a difficult one to adhere to, given the nature of the discussion, but none of us should be eager to see this thread deteriorate into political debate. I am also aware that I, myself, have made somewhat political comments on this thread. Its an interesting and relevant discussion to our forum and, well, I want to participate and see it continue.

Let's try to keep the discussion objective and cool. I don't think any of the world's power elite post here, so we should be okay blaming them for everything.

katana · 30th June 2006, 12:15 PM

A. G. Maisey your comments are well founded, like you I believe that there are unseen forces whch are dictating a change in social order. What is trully worrying is that this phenomena appears to be Global, many of us, be it British, American, Australian etc. have noticed the same errotion of civil liberties and a gradual shift of power ( both social and economic) to a small minority within each country's population.
The concerns of us (as collectors) regarding the possible reviews of 'knife law' seem to have only scratched the surface of a much larger problem.......the continuing loss of individual human rights.

There is a social order, where individual rights are unheard of, where each member works and lives (unquestionably) for the benefit of the whole
community, which sustains ONE individual.
They are ANTS....... the question is not 'are we mice or men' but rather, are we Ants or men.....................

Rick · 30th June 2006, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

A. G. Maisey your comments are well founded, like you I believe that there are unseen forces whch are dictating a change in social order. What is trully worrying is that this phenomena appears to be Global, many of us, be it British, American, Australian etc. have noticed the same errotion of civil liberties and a gradual shift of power ( both social and economic) to a small minority within each country's population.
The concerns of us (as collectors) regarding the possible reviews of 'knife law' seem to have only scratched the surface of a much larger problem.......the continuing loss of individual human rights.

There is a social order, where individual rights are unheard of, where each member works and lives (unquestionably) for the benefit of the whole
community, which sustains ONE individual.
They are ANTS....... the question is not 'are we mice or men' but rather, are we Ants or men.....................

More and more the world is not run by governments but by corporations of all kinds .
To answer your question, yes you are still a man ; but more important than that you are a consumer .

Emanuel · 30th June 2006, 05:01 PM

I think that will is the only weapon that man -or any other creature- needs. Knives or any tools are irrelevant; if one has the will to hurt or do damage, there's no law that can stop him/her. These ridiculous laws are indeed just methods of control, the problem is that the frogs don't want to accept what they should already know. The establishment is so well controlled that genuine concerns of liberty, rights, etc, are simply not addressed. The frogs know they're boiling, but they have no will to get out of the pan -and even worse, they lack the will to shut off the flame even when they can.

What I find mind-boggling is just the huge number of people that are frogs in this world, and when other frogs try to jump out of their kettles and they bump ours, we get upset and start fights.

The comments made by fellow forumites are right on the money. Another, part of the problem with the world, I think, is that it functions upon false assumptions. I believe there is no economic multiplier effect. For one place or person to prosper, another must decline. I also believe that the natural state of mankind is one of inequality. Equality can only be maintained artificially and to some cost by the community, and now -as has been said- the maintenance of that semblance of equality is being eroded and done away with.

Sad...the wheel of time is indeed unstopable. But the false assumptions (including today's globalization/integration/polarization) may still be broken.

About the Knife Amnesty law: I'm sorry for people of the UK, they're being tricked into destroying chunks of their history, and giving up some hard-earned rights.

Right now in Canada, I still have my most of my rights (including that of collecting some artefacts once used as weapons) but fear-mongering regarding jumping frogs has made it harder to speak one's thoughts, and many rights will soon be reduced in the interest of "national security."
Getting out of the way of the roller is only a temporary fix however...put enough people around it, and it'll stop.

Hmm...anyone ever read Atlas Shrugged?

VANDOO · 30th June 2006, 06:52 PM

YES I HAVE READ ATLAS SHRUGGED BY AYN RAND IT IS A GOOD READ AS WELL AS EXPRESSING A PHILOSOPHY AND LIKE H.G. WELLS DID PREDICT SOME OF THE FUTURE CONSIDERING WHEN IT WAS WRITTEN.

THE MAIN PROBLEMS WITH SOCALISM AND COMMUNISM IS THAT ALL PEOPLE ARE NOT ALIKE AND WHEN YOU REDUCE THE REWARDS TO THE SAME LEVEL FOR EVERYONE NO MATTER WHAT THE JOB OR HOW HARD YOU WORK OR HOW TALENTED THE INDIVIDUAL THEN MOST STOP TRYING. IF ALL YOU ARE PROVIDED BY YOUR KEEPERS IS THE SAME AS EVERYONE, A PLACE TO SLEEP A BOWL OF FOOD A FEW CLOTHES AND A JOB BASED ON WHAT THEY THINK YOU SHOULD DO, NOT ON YOUR TALENTS OR WANTS WHY DO ANY MORE WORK THAN YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO. THE KEEPERS WHO CONTROL EVERYTHING LIVE THE GOOD VERY RICH LIFE AND COME DOWN VERY HARD ON ANYONE WHO DOSEN'T DO AS THEY ARE TOLD SO MANY EXAMPLES ARE MADE FOR MINOR INFRACTIONS. THE ONLY WAY THIS WOULD WORK FOR LONG IS IF THE MAJORITY ARE EDUCATED FROM BIRTH TO BELIEVE WHAT THEY ARE TOLD WITHOUT REASONING IT OUT LOGICALLY AND KEPT FROM KNOWING WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON IN THE REST OF THE WORLD. PERHAPS YOU COULD KEEP THEM UNEDUCATED OR DRUGGED TO HAVE THE PERFECT ZOMBIE WORK FORCE, UNFORTUNATELY FOR THE KEEPERS, IN TODAYS WORLD ZOMBIES DON'T MAKE A VERY GOOD WORK FORCE NO MATTER HOW CHEAP THEY WORK.

HUMANS ARE ALL WIRED TO SURVIVE AND AQUIRE THE THINGS WE INSTINTLY NEED FOR A GOOD LIFE, WE WANT TO HAVE A WIFE A FAMILY, FOOD,SHELTER, BELONGINGS AND FUN. SOME INDIVIDUALS ARE BORN WITH MORE TALENT AND DRIVE AND WILL GET BETTER JOBS AND MAKE BETTER DECISIONS THAN OTHERS. SOME WILL USE WHAT TALENTS THEY HAVE AND STILL HAVE MOST OF THE THINGS EVERYONE WANTS BUT NOTHING EXTRA AND BE VERY CONTENT AS THEY DID THE WORK THEMSELVES AND TAKE PRIDE IN THAT. THERE HAVE TO BE GOOD LAWMAKERS AS THAT IS WHAT KEEPS THOSE WHO ARE VERY POWERFUL FROM TAKEING WHAT THOSE WITH LESS TALENTS AND POWER HAVE WORKED FOR. THAT IS WHERE THE CHIEF PROBLEM WITH THE USA COMES IN WE NEED PEOPLE IN A POSITION OF POWER TO CONTROL THE GREED OF THOSE WITH LOTS OF MONEY AND POWER. BUT THE ONES WITH THE HUNGER TO TAKE IT ALL FOR THEMSELVES HAVE MOST OF THE POWER THIS IS THE CASE IN MANY OTHER COUNTRYS AS WELL. FROM WHAT I CAN SEE WHEN YOU GET SO MUCH MONEY AND POWER THAT IT DOSEN'T THRILL YOU OR MAKE YOU FEEL POWERFUL TO ADD SEVERAL BILLION DOLLARS TO YOUR PILE ANY MORE. THEN YOU LIKE TO SEE EVERYONE ELSE IN THE COUNTRY UNDER YOUR THUMB WITH NOTHING AND STRUGGLEING TO SURVIVE AND YOU CAN TAKE IT ALL AWAY AT WILL WHICH MAKES YOU FEEL BIG AGAIN. ITS CALLED BEING A DICTATOR BUT IS REFERED TO IN OTHER TERMS IN MANY COUNTRYS. JUST GUESSING ABOUT THE VERY POWERFUL THEY STAY BEHIND THE SCENES AND I AM CERTIANLY NOT ONE OF THEM SO MUST GO ON HISTORY AND WHAT I HAVE SEEN OVER THE YEARS.
I HAD NOT PLANNED TO POST AGAIN ON THIS TOPIC BUT THE REFRENCE TO ATLAS SHRUGGED MADE ME DO IT

MABAGANI · 30th June 2006, 07:34 PM

So in light of the different theories of where we're headed, what's everyone have planned for their collections. I went through a house fire over a year ago, caused by a smoking tenant, my family was not harmed (thank God) and for some uncanny reason my entire collection was spared damage, but I've downsized quite a bit after a move...when I saw the place up in flames I kissed everything goodbye but was suprised to be able to recover all my belongings, sooner or later the artifacts need to be preserved by the next generation, maybe move them on to close relatives and friends, also universities and museums I've worked with...

BSMStar · 30th June 2006, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

More and more the world is not run by governments but by corporations of all kinds.

Dude, you must have seen RollerBall.

(Sorry - having flashbacks).

30th June 2006, 01:39 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Divide and conquer? Yes. But divide and rule is perhaps the more correct dictum. There is no taking of control whilst the populace is otherwise occupied. That control is maintained by keeping the populace occupied with matters that prevent them from thinking about the management of their society by government. What Barry has described is exactly the practical application of the principle. However, whichever political party may appear to be managing government, that political party's leaders are themselves being managed by the people, groups of people, and organisations which are at the top of the societal tree. Anybody here remember Vietnam? Remember what happened to the Dow every time there were rumours of peace? And what happened after each major offensive? Where has the middle class in developed societies gone? Does the period during which the decline of this middle class has occurred correspond to the period during which western capital has transferred its manufacturing operations to China, its administrative processes to India and Singapore, and whatever other transferable processes it can identify to places where wage rates are very much below what the wage rates are in developed countries? What is the nature of the employment that remains available for the present and rising generations in developed countries? Blind Freddy can see that there is no longer the foundation in industry nor commerce which produced the middle class that arose following the industrial revolution. The wheel of history has turned and wealth, and along with it, position in society, is now in the process of polarising to the situation that was in place in Europe prior to the industrial revolution. Before this polarisation is complete, there will be a lot of very unhappy people in the populations of the developed countries. If the elite wish to have a reasonable chance of controlling these people , and of managing the economies of these countries, it is necessary for the populations of these countries to be re-engineered into docility and obediance. There are many tools that can be employed to achieve these ends, and one of these tools is the disarming of the populace. You cannot disarm any group of people that believes in the sanctity of weaponry, nor its necessity to maintain civilian life and protect personal property. Thus, where a society is already very stable and well controlled, as it is in Australia, you can immediately indoctrinate the community, commencing in school, with the belief that only sociopaths and criminals possess any form of weapon. Where a society is a little less well controlled, you need to create the conditions where people will believe in the lesser of two evils. By encouraging a proliferation of civilian weaponry in a society that already has severe social schism, and at the same time setting in place social policies that exacerbate that schism, ultimately you will produce a situation where murder and mayhem will become routine. At this point you offer the solution, and that solution will involve severe restrictions that would not be tolerated in a well ordered society. Those of us with an interest in weaponry are simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. We probably all should have been born at least 100 years ago. We are dinosaurs, we all know what happened to the dinosaurs. But we are human dinosaurs, and as humans, we have the power of reason. We may not be able to stop the wheel of time from turning, but we can deduce what it may crush next, and we can step to one side. Along with our collections. It is important, I believe, to view this entire process with an appreciation of the time frame that could be involved. I think world population is due to peak somewhere within the next 50 years or so. If China continues development at its present rate it will dominate world trade, and by extension, world economics and military power, within 20 to 30 years. Probably the completion of US societal re-engineering cannot be seriously advanced within a time frame that will impact greatly upon anybody reading this. However, there is no doubt that in the more ordered societies of Western Europe, and in my own country, Australia, we can expect to see a continued truncation of civil liberties.Within my lifetime I expect to see many of my present "privileges" (in this country we do not have "rights") reduced or removed. My age is 65. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 30th June 2006 at 01:56 AM.

30th June 2006, 03:19 AM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	A request to all thread participants (but no one in particular)... It's inevitable that this topic will slide inexorably toward politics. However, let's all please stay away from polarizing the discussion with references to "liberal/conservative" or party politics. I know my request is a difficult one to adhere to, given the nature of the discussion, but none of us should be eager to see this thread deteriorate into political debate. I am also aware that I, myself, have made somewhat political comments on this thread. Its an interesting and relevant discussion to our forum and, well, I want to participate and see it continue. Let's try to keep the discussion objective and cool. I don't think any of the world's power elite post here, so we should be okay blaming them for everything.

30th June 2006, 05:01 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Sad business... I think that will is the only weapon that man -or any other creature- needs. Knives or any tools are irrelevant; if one has the will to hurt or do damage, there's no law that can stop him/her. These ridiculous laws are indeed just methods of control, the problem is that the frogs don't want to accept what they should already know. The establishment is so well controlled that genuine concerns of liberty, rights, etc, are simply not addressed. The frogs know they're boiling, but they have no will to get out of the pan -and even worse, they lack the will to shut off the flame even when they can. What I find mind-boggling is just the huge number of people that are frogs in this world, and when other frogs try to jump out of their kettles and they bump ours, we get upset and start fights. The comments made by fellow forumites are right on the money. Another, part of the problem with the world, I think, is that it functions upon false assumptions. I believe there is no economic multiplier effect. For one place or person to prosper, another must decline. I also believe that the natural state of mankind is one of inequality. Equality can only be maintained artificially and to some cost by the community, and now -as has been said- the maintenance of that semblance of equality is being eroded and done away with. Sad...the wheel of time is indeed unstopable. But the false assumptions (including today's globalization/integration/polarization) may still be broken. About the Knife Amnesty law: I'm sorry for people of the UK, they're being tricked into destroying chunks of their history, and giving up some hard-earned rights. Right now in Canada, I still have my most of my rights (including that of collecting some artefacts once used as weapons) but fear-mongering regarding jumping frogs has made it harder to speak one's thoughts, and many rights will soon be reduced in the interest of "national security." Getting out of the way of the roller is only a temporary fix however...put enough people around it, and it'll stop. Hmm...anyone ever read Atlas Shrugged?

30th June 2006, 12:15 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	A. G. Maisey your comments are well founded, like you I believe that there are unseen forces whch are dictating a change in social order. What is trully worrying is that this phenomena appears to be Global, many of us, be it British, American, Australian etc. have noticed the same errotion of civil liberties and a gradual shift of power ( both social and economic) to a small minority within each country's population. The concerns of us (as collectors) regarding the possible reviews of 'knife law' seem to have only scratched the surface of a much larger problem.......the continuing loss of individual human rights. There is a social order, where individual rights are unheard of, where each member works and lives (unquestionably) for the benefit of the whole community, which sustains ONE individual. They are ANTS....... the question is not 'are we mice or men' but rather, are we Ants or men.....................

30th June 2006, 06:52 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	YES I HAVE READ ATLAS SHRUGGED BY AYN RAND IT IS A GOOD READ AS WELL AS EXPRESSING A PHILOSOPHY AND LIKE H.G. WELLS DID PREDICT SOME OF THE FUTURE CONSIDERING WHEN IT WAS WRITTEN. THE MAIN PROBLEMS WITH SOCALISM AND COMMUNISM IS THAT ALL PEOPLE ARE NOT ALIKE AND WHEN YOU REDUCE THE REWARDS TO THE SAME LEVEL FOR EVERYONE NO MATTER WHAT THE JOB OR HOW HARD YOU WORK OR HOW TALENTED THE INDIVIDUAL THEN MOST STOP TRYING. IF ALL YOU ARE PROVIDED BY YOUR KEEPERS IS THE SAME AS EVERYONE, A PLACE TO SLEEP A BOWL OF FOOD A FEW CLOTHES AND A JOB BASED ON WHAT THEY THINK YOU SHOULD DO, NOT ON YOUR TALENTS OR WANTS WHY DO ANY MORE WORK THAN YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO. THE KEEPERS WHO CONTROL EVERYTHING LIVE THE GOOD VERY RICH LIFE AND COME DOWN VERY HARD ON ANYONE WHO DOSEN'T DO AS THEY ARE TOLD SO MANY EXAMPLES ARE MADE FOR MINOR INFRACTIONS. THE ONLY WAY THIS WOULD WORK FOR LONG IS IF THE MAJORITY ARE EDUCATED FROM BIRTH TO BELIEVE WHAT THEY ARE TOLD WITHOUT REASONING IT OUT LOGICALLY AND KEPT FROM KNOWING WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON IN THE REST OF THE WORLD. PERHAPS YOU COULD KEEP THEM UNEDUCATED OR DRUGGED TO HAVE THE PERFECT ZOMBIE WORK FORCE, UNFORTUNATELY FOR THE KEEPERS, IN TODAYS WORLD ZOMBIES DON'T MAKE A VERY GOOD WORK FORCE NO MATTER HOW CHEAP THEY WORK. HUMANS ARE ALL WIRED TO SURVIVE AND AQUIRE THE THINGS WE INSTINTLY NEED FOR A GOOD LIFE, WE WANT TO HAVE A WIFE A FAMILY, FOOD,SHELTER, BELONGINGS AND FUN. SOME INDIVIDUALS ARE BORN WITH MORE TALENT AND DRIVE AND WILL GET BETTER JOBS AND MAKE BETTER DECISIONS THAN OTHERS. SOME WILL USE WHAT TALENTS THEY HAVE AND STILL HAVE MOST OF THE THINGS EVERYONE WANTS BUT NOTHING EXTRA AND BE VERY CONTENT AS THEY DID THE WORK THEMSELVES AND TAKE PRIDE IN THAT. THERE HAVE TO BE GOOD LAWMAKERS AS THAT IS WHAT KEEPS THOSE WHO ARE VERY POWERFUL FROM TAKEING WHAT THOSE WITH LESS TALENTS AND POWER HAVE WORKED FOR. THAT IS WHERE THE CHIEF PROBLEM WITH THE USA COMES IN WE NEED PEOPLE IN A POSITION OF POWER TO CONTROL THE GREED OF THOSE WITH LOTS OF MONEY AND POWER. BUT THE ONES WITH THE HUNGER TO TAKE IT ALL FOR THEMSELVES HAVE MOST OF THE POWER THIS IS THE CASE IN MANY OTHER COUNTRYS AS WELL. FROM WHAT I CAN SEE WHEN YOU GET SO MUCH MONEY AND POWER THAT IT DOSEN'T THRILL YOU OR MAKE YOU FEEL POWERFUL TO ADD SEVERAL BILLION DOLLARS TO YOUR PILE ANY MORE. THEN YOU LIKE TO SEE EVERYONE ELSE IN THE COUNTRY UNDER YOUR THUMB WITH NOTHING AND STRUGGLEING TO SURVIVE AND YOU CAN TAKE IT ALL AWAY AT WILL WHICH MAKES YOU FEEL BIG AGAIN. ITS CALLED BEING A DICTATOR BUT IS REFERED TO IN OTHER TERMS IN MANY COUNTRYS. JUST GUESSING ABOUT THE VERY POWERFUL THEY STAY BEHIND THE SCENES AND I AM CERTIANLY NOT ONE OF THEM SO MUST GO ON HISTORY AND WHAT I HAVE SEEN OVER THE YEARS. I HAD NOT PLANNED TO POST AGAIN ON THIS TOPIC BUT THE REFRENCE TO ATLAS SHRUGGED MADE ME DO IT

30th June 2006, 07:34 PM	#7
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	So in light of the different theories of where we're headed, what's everyone have planned for their collections. I went through a house fire over a year ago, caused by a smoking tenant, my family was not harmed (thank God) and for some uncanny reason my entire collection was spared damage, but I've downsized quite a bit after a move...when I saw the place up in flames I kissed everything goodbye but was suprised to be able to recover all my belongings, sooner or later the artifacts need to be preserved by the next generation, maybe move them on to close relatives and friends, also universities and museums I've worked with...