Qajar brass shield

Rivkin · 30th June 2006, 12:42 AM

I am not a specialist on Iran, but this seems to be XIXth century Iran Qajar persian; as most "revival pieces" somewhat ceremonial/nationalistic/Shia example.

Andrew · 30th June 2006, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

I am not a specialist on Iran, but this seems to be XIXth century Iran Qajar persian; as most "revival pieces" somewhat ceremonial/nationalistic/Shia example.

Rivkin, what about this particular shield strikes you as nationalistic? I know very little about these things, but I don't really get that impression.

Rivkin · 30th June 2006, 05:07 AM

What I meant is that the whole movement of "revival" was somewhat nationalistic, surrounding the foundations of persian unity, unlikely combination of Safavi-influenced Shia traditions with Shahname. I don't want to pretend to be an expert on this one.

It is all connected to the ideology of Persian Empire: what it is based upon and who is considered to be part of it. I can give you an example - despite almost uninterrupted rule or turkoman and turkoman related leaders their rule was never seen as turkish occupation or domination, despite the fact that persians per se were confined to mostly ulema (islamic "priesthood" of a kind) and some non-military, non-trade and non-industry related goverment jobs. At the same time a short period of Afghan control over Persia is considered to be an occupation by Afghani. In my opinion it is based on some shared values, i.e. since Safavids Persia was perceived as a Shia state with a "remembrance" of its pre-islamic past; the tribes that shared this, with no regard to their language or history would at some level be considered Persian, the tribes that were Sunni or Najes would be considered on some level outsiders.

If you ask Talysh (i.e. persian speaking tribe from Azerbaijan) he will tell you that Persian Empire has to be rebuilt to unite the Shias and restore the old culture of Shahname. If you ask Lezghi (neighboring mostly Sunni tribe that is very proud of its old caucasian traditions rather than persian culture) whether he likes Persian Empire to be restored he will most likely react extremely violently.

Qajar Revival, Passion plays is probably something most symbolic of such "Persianism".

erlikhan · 30th June 2006, 11:09 AM

Hi.are you sure this is Persian,even from Iran at all? It has a crescent (it must be),same form of which I have seen many times on Indo-Persian shields(especially hide ones). Persians don't use crescent as far as I know. North and South Azerbaijan(Northern Iran) use it but as a Turkish national symbol so it is not expected to be used on a persian revival work,not?But the main point is not necessarily the existence of an supposed crescent,and not who use that symbol and who doesn't. The shield must be Indian or Indo-Persian in origin.Earliest the end of 19th c. or early 20th made for ordinary private guards of somewhere or even for tourists, -if not- much newer, first of all considering the low quality and fastest method of chiselling ,and as the material is brass instead of iron,which is harder to work,but which looks heavier,more respected and real. Plus the figured guy's style looks more Indian than Persian with arm bands or tattoes,naked,big earrings and several necklaces going down till his belly.
regards

James D.N.MacKenzie · 8th July 2006, 04:04 PM

Gentlemen

Thank you all for the bits of information.

I am still not sure what I have but after some internet research I am also inclined to think it is Indo-Persian. This shield has to be the largest one I have found on the internet. It is pretty heavy too.

Once again, thank you all for your input.

Regards

James D.N.MacKenzie
SAM - Southern Africa Militaria
http://southernafricamilitaria.com

30th June 2006, 11:09 AM	#4
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Hi.are you sure this is Persian,even from Iran at all? It has a crescent (it must be),same form of which I have seen many times on Indo-Persian shields(especially hide ones). Persians don't use crescent as far as I know. North and South Azerbaijan(Northern Iran) use it but as a Turkish national symbol so it is not expected to be used on a persian revival work,not?But the main point is not necessarily the existence of an supposed crescent,and not who use that symbol and who doesn't. The shield must be Indian or Indo-Persian in origin.Earliest the end of 19th c. or early 20th made for ordinary private guards of somewhere or even for tourists, -if not- much newer, first of all considering the low quality and fastest method of chiselling ,and as the material is brass instead of iron,which is harder to work,but which looks heavier,more respected and real. Plus the figured guy's style looks more Indian than Persian with arm bands or tattoes,naked,big earrings and several necklaces going down till his belly. regards Last edited by erlikhan; 30th June 2006 at 04:47 PM.

30th June 2006, 12:42 AM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I am not a specialist on Iran, but this seems to be XIXth century Iran Qajar persian; as most "revival pieces" somewhat ceremonial/nationalistic/Shia example.

30th June 2006, 05:07 AM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	What I meant is that the whole movement of "revival" was somewhat nationalistic, surrounding the foundations of persian unity, unlikely combination of Safavi-influenced Shia traditions with Shahname. I don't want to pretend to be an expert on this one. It is all connected to the ideology of Persian Empire: what it is based upon and who is considered to be part of it. I can give you an example - despite almost uninterrupted rule or turkoman and turkoman related leaders their rule was never seen as turkish occupation or domination, despite the fact that persians per se were confined to mostly ulema (islamic "priesthood" of a kind) and some non-military, non-trade and non-industry related goverment jobs. At the same time a short period of Afghan control over Persia is considered to be an occupation by Afghani. In my opinion it is based on some shared values, i.e. since Safavids Persia was perceived as a Shia state with a "remembrance" of its pre-islamic past; the tribes that shared this, with no regard to their language or history would at some level be considered Persian, the tribes that were Sunni or Najes would be considered on some level outsiders. If you ask Talysh (i.e. persian speaking tribe from Azerbaijan) he will tell you that Persian Empire has to be rebuilt to unite the Shias and restore the old culture of Shahname. If you ask Lezghi (neighboring mostly Sunni tribe that is very proud of its old caucasian traditions rather than persian culture) whether he likes Persian Empire to be restored he will most likely react extremely violently. Qajar Revival, Passion plays is probably something most symbolic of such "Persianism".

8th July 2006, 04:04 PM	#5
James D.N.MacKenzie Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Cape Town, South Africa Posts: 2	Gentlemen Thank you all for the bits of information. I am still not sure what I have but after some internet research I am also inclined to think it is Indo-Persian. This shield has to be the largest one I have found on the internet. It is pretty heavy too. Once again, thank you all for your input. Regards James D.N.MacKenzie SAM - Southern Africa Militaria http://southernafricamilitaria.com