Georgian Midshipman Dirk

Sajen · 25th August 2023, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

Grip is ivory or bone and again in v good condition and nicely coloured, gilding remains on the brass on guard and other components of the handle.

Hello Ken,

Beautiful Naval dirk! Handle looks like bone or antler to my eyes!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

Hope you like it, I do anyway.

Me too!

Regards,
Detlef

M ELEY · 26th August 2023, 12:37 AM

Great find, Ken! A really beautiful example of one of these! Could certainly be bone, but also ivory with a honey patina (this little guy probably dates 1790's-1805, Nelson's era.) Heck, some of these are made from walrus tusk, but I'd wager ivory...

Raf · 26th August 2023, 03:30 PM

I remember reading somewhere that late 18 th century hilts often used mammoth ivory. Don't know how you tell the difference.

Richard G · 26th August 2023, 05:15 PM

Yes, mammoth ivory.
Definitely mammoth ivory.
So much simpler.
In UK anyway.

Best wishes
Richard

Radboud · 27th August 2023, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

Yes, mammoth ivory.
Definitely mammoth ivory.
So much simpler.
In UK anyway.

Best wishes
Richard

You’ll want to double check that, I’m not 100% certain but I believe they extended the ban to mammoth ivory because it was too difficult to distinguish some of it.

Raf · 27th August 2023, 10:38 AM

Left is mammoth right is elephant

Jim McDougall · 27th August 2023, 04:15 PM

This is a breathtaking example of the form, most unusual and fascinating in its simple and elegant styling. While it is clearly naval, it rings 'Highland' in my view with its leaning toward the elemental character of the Scottish dirk with the cylindrical styling present. Though not exact of course, it just seems so to me.

It is surely 'age of sail' period, likely Napoleonic, and reflects the kind of ingenuity of the weapons privately commissioned by officers. The dirk was of course a very personal weapon, and carried important symbolic value to the individual.
The naval dirk, though not directly associated with the Scottish dirk, was still closely aligned in these kinds of cases with the wide personalized variation.

There is important history with the Scottish dirk which is intriguing as to why this was such an important weapon. After the proscription of 'weapons' during and after the Jacobite rebellions, the dirk was exempted, and with a most unusual reason.
The strong personal attachment to a Highlander's dirk included profound superstitions ,often related to the same 'magical' superstitions imbued in the German blades of the swords. These circumstances had the swearing of oaths on the dirk held sacrosanct to the point of fear of supernatural retribution if broken, and this was of course used to advantage by British authorities.

While a bit off course, just wanted to add that bit of information which I hope might add to the historic dynamics potentially aligned with this beautiful dirk.

I note the initals in silver rondel on the pommel,which further reminds me of Scottish character.

Raf, thank you so much for the illustration of the identification means with differences in ivory types, and the technical term for these lines (Schreger lines). I had never heard of these as I have not studied much on these materials, so I feel very much enlightened on these forensics! I am inclined to agree with Capn Mark on the period of this dirk, and wonder if perhaps narwhal ivory might have been used as well as walrus. Im not sure of the availability of mammoth ivory, especially then, but seems that these maritime animals components might be more likely.

Richard G · 27th August 2023, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radboud

You’ll want to double check that, I’m not 100% certain but I believe they extended the ban to mammoth ivory because it was too difficult to distinguish some of it.

Not yet, but it's definitely on the cards. Basically all ivory, marine, hippo, warthog, etc.
The difficulty in distinguishing elephant from mammoth ivory is not only a problem for the regulators but also, I think, for the collector or curator.
There was a recognised trade in mammoth ivory from Scandinavian and Russian bogs into the UK and I think it is probable many artifacts assumed to be African ivory are in fact mammoth.
Best wishes
Richard

Interested Party · 26th August 2023, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raf

I remember reading somewhere that late 18 th century hilts often used mammoth ivory. Don't know how you tell the difference.

The angle of the lines on the end grain.

27th August 2023, 10:38 AM	#6
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 252	Left is mammoth right is elephant Attached Images

26th August 2023, 12:37 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,156	Great find, Ken! A really beautiful example of one of these! Could certainly be bone, but also ivory with a honey patina (this little guy probably dates 1790's-1805, Nelson's era.) Heck, some of these are made from walrus tusk, but I'd wager ivory...

26th August 2023, 03:30 PM	#3
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 252	I remember reading somewhere that late 18 th century hilts often used mammoth ivory. Don't know how you tell the difference.

26th August 2023, 05:15 PM	#4
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 411	Yes, mammoth ivory. Definitely mammoth ivory. So much simpler. In UK anyway. Best wishes Richard

27th August 2023, 04:15 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	This is a breathtaking example of the form, most unusual and fascinating in its simple and elegant styling. While it is clearly naval, it rings 'Highland' in my view with its leaning toward the elemental character of the Scottish dirk with the cylindrical styling present. Though not exact of course, it just seems so to me. It is surely 'age of sail' period, likely Napoleonic, and reflects the kind of ingenuity of the weapons privately commissioned by officers. The dirk was of course a very personal weapon, and carried important symbolic value to the individual. The naval dirk, though not directly associated with the Scottish dirk, was still closely aligned in these kinds of cases with the wide personalized variation. There is important history with the Scottish dirk which is intriguing as to why this was such an important weapon. After the proscription of 'weapons' during and after the Jacobite rebellions, the dirk was exempted, and with a most unusual reason. The strong personal attachment to a Highlander's dirk included profound superstitions ,often related to the same 'magical' superstitions imbued in the German blades of the swords. These circumstances had the swearing of oaths on the dirk held sacrosanct to the point of fear of supernatural retribution if broken, and this was of course used to advantage by British authorities. While a bit off course, just wanted to add that bit of information which I hope might add to the historic dynamics potentially aligned with this beautiful dirk. I note the initals in silver rondel on the pommel,which further reminds me of Scottish character. Raf, thank you so much for the illustration of the identification means with differences in ivory types, and the technical term for these lines (Schreger lines). I had never heard of these as I have not studied much on these materials, so I feel very much enlightened on these forensics! I am inclined to agree with Capn Mark on the period of this dirk, and wonder if perhaps narwhal ivory might have been used as well as walrus. Im not sure of the availability of mammoth ivory, especially then, but seems that these maritime animals components might be more likely.