Bolo with wide blade and t-grip for identification

Ian · 30th January 2005, 01:59 AM

... suggested by Jim. Definitely worth careful consideration since both areas were home to head hunting groups that were active well into the 20th C. The US presence in the Philippines during the first half of the 20th C. did much to reduce the practice there, and the Japanese had a similar influence in Taiwan.

We actually have quite a wealth of information already on the old Forum that can help with discussion of this region. On a relationship between the Taiwanese aboriginal groups and the various tribal groups in northern Luzon, our colleague "Cy" had these comments in an earlier thread (found here http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001381.html):

“FYI Taiwan formerly Formosa Island the indigenous inhabitants were made up of several Austronesian tribes commonly called the Paiwan. Of these tribes, 9 are currently recognized. It is speculated by a number of Anthropologists that the Paiwan were the forefathers/ancestors of all of the races of Austronesian people, i.e., the hill tribes of Northern Luzon, the Dayaks of Borneo, and other peoples across the Indonesian Archipelago.

The weapons are not just a factor but similarities in customs, you see the Paiwan and other tribes of Taiwan/Formosa were headhunters. Some even used the tattoo in a similar manner as the Kalinga and Bontoc of Luzon, as well as the Dayaks of Borneo.

I can go on and state various other similarities, etc., but I do not want to be accused of going off on a subject. The tribes of Taiwan: Atayal, Paiwan, Saisiat, Ami, Rukai, Tsou, Yami - of Orchid Island: Puyuma, Bunun.”

The knives and swords of the Taiwanese aboriginal groups were also discussed and illustrated in several topics on the old Forum, of which these had the most material:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000582.html
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000858.html
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002486.html

Some time ago, I wrote quite a lengthy piece on the various edged weapons of the main Taiwanese native populations (http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000858.html), with illustrations and text taken from an excellent reference: Material Culture of the Formosan Aborigines by Dr. Chen Chi-Lu, Taiwan Museum:Taipei, 1968. This reference also provides details of the dress, textiles, tools, and much of the other materials of daily living used by the various tribal groups of Taiwan.

In the lexicon of knives and swords presented by Dr. Chen, there is nothing that resembles the heavy-bellied chopper that appears at the head of this topic. Nor is there a resemblance to the scabbard above.

I have just read through Dr. Chen's discussion of the dress of men of these various tribes, and they did use a breechclout quite commonly (which is the attire of the gentleman in the picture above). However, the predominant material was black cloth, and many men wore a short "skirt" over the breechclout, neither of which matches the picture above. The Atayal tribe was particularly fond of making belts and beads of threaded shells, and I think the man in the photograph has a narrow belt of threaded somethings, perhaps small shells but could be bone or teeth. Shell belts are not unique and may be found elsewhere in SE Asia, so this may not be a very helpful observation.

I have looked also at the line drawings of the various tribal peoples in Dr. Chen's book, and they really do not look much like the man in the picture above. I have not searched the web for pictures of the various groups, but someone might like to do that to judge the similarity or otherwise of facial features.

Bottom line, however, is that there is no record I can find of a fat-bellied bolo being used by any of the Taiwanese aboriginal groups, while the knives and swords that are documented are very different in style and construction.

Tribal groups of northern Luzon are numerous and diverse. With the exception of the Ilocanos, who are quite tall, the majority of "Igorotes" are small and dark skinned. The shortest are probably the Aete, who can be found on the Bataan Peninsula. There are many pictures and old post cards of the various hill tribes of northern Luzon. They are much darker skinned than the man in the photo above and have different facial features altogether. Many of the men wear breechclouts, but dissimilar to the one worn by the man above.

Of the various northern Luzon groups, the Aete do have a short, fat bellied bolo but nowhere near as massive as the one carried by the man in the photo or illustrated in the two examples above.

Other hill tribes, of which there are many (Ifugao, Bontoc, Kalinga, etc.), use heavy knives, some of which have quite a wide belly. Elsewhere on this site there is discussion of the hinalung and pinahig (http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/ifugao/index.html), and it is the hinalung that sometimes has a fat belly. However, even in its fat-belly form, the spine of the blade is flat and never upcurving (as in the pictures above). Moreover, the style of rattan bindings is quite different, and many of the Igorot scabbards are open faced.

Another tribal group of northern Luzon is the Ilongot, very notable head hunters into the second half of the 20th C. There is an excellent book about this relatively small tribal group and its head hunting practices: Ilongot Headhunting 1883-1974: A study in society and history, by Renato Rosaldo, Stanford University Press, Stanford, 1980. The traditional knife of the Ilongot is distinctive and separate from those of the Igorotes, but is not of the heavy fat-belly form that we seek and the scabbard is totally different, being closed and adorned with thin wires on which there are tiny colored beads strung and small pieces of mother of pearl at the end. [I have several of these knives and will post pictures when I can again upload from my digital camera.

]

Once again, there are virtually no data to support an association between the tribes of northern Luzon and the bolo that is the subject of this discussion. The man in the photo shows few, if any, physical features to suggest he might come from this region. There is an old article by Dean Worcester entitled Headhunters of Northern Luzon in the September, 1912 National Geographic that has many pictures of the tribal groups that live in the mountainous areas of this region. Another article by the same author, The Non-Christian People of the Philippine Islands, provides further photographs of many other Filipino tribal groups. While the text is dated and somewhat "paternalistic," the photographs are a good historical record of the times, and are helpful to the present discussion.

A lot of the thoughts on this thread have been by analogy rather than based on data. Our friend, Ruel, would urge us to be more critical in our thinking on this subject. I don't wish to stifle people's comments, but what we need now is reliable information in the form of historical records or direct observation. Saying what we have not seen, or what other people have not found, only takes us so far.

Ian.

Jim McDougall · 30th January 2005, 04:53 AM

Ian,
The well presented and detailed data you post here is outstanding! Exactly what I had hoped for, supported observations and comments on the ideas and suggestions added in the discussion thus far. Knowing that your personal knowledge and expertise on the weapons and culture of these regions is well established and based largely on travel and first hand field study throughout them, places your observations in key importance and qualifies the material discussed thus far accordingly.

While I understand Ruel's emphasis on critical thinking based on academically based discussion, I think that in our 'discovery' stage of analysis it is important to 'put all cards on the table',so to speak. I think that reading the various thoughts and perceptions posted on this thread, whether they are plausible or not, are important to be aware of, and as I have noted, are very educational to those of us not as well versed in this particular sector of weapons study. In the reverse sense of identification, it is sometimes important to consider what something is not, and progressively eliminate, to reach the most plausible conclusion of what it is.

Your excellent and categoric attention to the thoughts discussed to this point on this elusive chopper form establishes an important benchmark for us to continue with direction, and as you have well stated, bring in supported and referenced data to move toward the most plausible, or even better, final conclusion.

Thanks very much Ian

!
Very best regards,
Jim

Andrew · 30th January 2005, 05:20 AM

Great post, Ian.

I once casually mentioned that I consider what we do on this forum as a kind of "sword free-association". This thread is a perfect example of this.

I also like Jim's playing card metaphor. I offered up the only observation I felt comfortable making. My "cards" if you will. By itself, that observation is useless. Factor in the other comments, and we may get somewhere. Maybe.

If not, I imagine someone will dig this thread up when more information comes to light. *shrug*

Ian · 30th January 2005, 06:16 AM

Jim and Andrew:

Thank you for the kind words, but I think I have probably said enough on this topic for now. Look forward to hearing what others think. This type of discussion does not come along very often. Hal has thrown us a real challenge here, and I do want to thank him and Tom for bringing these bolos to our attention.

This thread has the potential to be another "Black Sea Yataghan" saga or, dare we say it, another "Shaver Cool."

Cheers,

Ian.

tom hyle · 30th January 2005, 04:39 PM

I do want to try to make another point that may be too subtle for my linguistic ability at the moment: Let's try:
I don't consider the "angle" at the base of the known Mandaya blades to be part of the blade, entirely; it occurs at the joining of shaft (ricassoesque feature) and blade; thus it is essentially similar to say the forward lean of sabres, which occurs in the tang, leaving the blade per se (ie the cutting part) to be a simple curve, though the overall affect is of a re-curve. Such adjustments that are not in the blade as such seem to me to be more fluid, both within a given culture and between neighboring groups (see angle variations on sabres, or on talibon/garabs, or on kampilan). In other words, though certainly these blades do have a slight curvature, and the known Mandaya swords none, the actual blades per se are otherwise very similar, and it is a slight curve; thus to me it could be variations on a theme, with the biggest difference perhaps being the lack of an unsharp shaft/ricassoe. I don't think I sufficiently explained myself about this seeming relation earlier; hopefully I've clarified.

fearn · 30th January 2005, 06:02 PM

Great post, Ian.

Unless or until someone finds a good reference to the tribes of the Philippines, we're left guessing.

However, I'd be willing to bet money that, when we finally do figure out where these blades come from, it'll be a Philippine tribe, probably in the north, and that Therion's blade was brought home from a WWII soldier.

As an (apparent) aside, remember when the space shuttle Challenger blew up? The New York stock Exchange correctly figured out that components from Morton Thiokol had caused the explosion (Thiokol stock dropped far more steeply than did the stock of all other shuttle contractors). It took an expert commission months to figure out that it was the O-rings on the booster rockets built by Morton Thiokol.

Now, the stock market didn't have any inside information, but it did serve as a great way for agglomerating a bunch of disparate information into an accurate result. It was accurate, in part, because people had money riding on the outcome.

This is the whole basis for the Iowa Elections Market and other such predictive markets.

Getting back to this blade, I think we're seeing the same "market of ideas" here. None of us knows what it is, but (combined with the picture) a bunch of us are independently coming up with the same kinds of answers. My guess is that, as a forum, we're probably right, although I'm not sure each of us is individually. In

Going back to what Ian said, I'd like to see definitive evidence. However, I wouldn't discount the meanderings we've done so far.

Fun case!

F

Rick · 30th January 2005, 06:30 PM

I sent an email to the owner of the site on the Shuar along with a copy of the jpg. and a link to this thread .

Maybe he will respond .

I've got a couple of questions for Hal and Tom .
Does the blade appear to be hand forged ?

The sword we're discussing has a nice silvery 'sheen' on the blade up near the guard .
Would that indicate a factory made blade ?

Federico · 30th January 2005, 08:17 PM

One note I'll make. If we are still considering Northern PI as a candidate for this bolo, and we assume that the man in the picture is representative of the culture from which this bolo was found, then I believe we can limit ourselves only to the non-Christian tribes of Luzon (Christian groups at the turn of the century were Christian due to their subjugation to Spanish hegemony, as such they would A. not be in a loin-cloth B. not be considered headhunters). And if we limit ourselves to headhunters in Luzon, then we limit ourselves pretty much to the mountain tribes, called Igorot (depending who you talk to Illongots could be called Igorot, my mom is adamant that this is not the case, but Ive seen it pop up in period writing). That being the case, as noted already by Ian, while I cannot say I am any expert on the Igorot tribes (used to be a good network of websites on all the different Igorot tribes, but I believe it went down a couple years back) I dont believe Ive ever seen anything like this bolo associated with them.

Battara · 30th January 2005, 09:02 PM

Federico, "preach nah, don' play w'it!"

tom hyle · 30th January 2005, 10:45 PM

Definitely a forged, layered steel blade. It does seem to have had repeated polishings over the years, despite a lack of pitting, as the okar exhibits lines that are almost worn off, and others where there are none to reflect them, giving one to suspect those have worn entirely off. The surface exhibits a light grey patina, just about one shade darker than bare steel, over what looks like a nicely smooth old native polish.

tom hyle · 23rd April 2005, 02:52 PM

So I've got this talibon from Leyte. I don't know this by any mysterious nor scholarly powers; it say "Leyte" on the sheath (it says either "AbuyOg LEytE P.I." or "Abuy 09 LEytE P.I." The capitalization is just like that, except the "small" ys and g are written above the line, so they occupy the same space as the capitals (and the u, though it has a tail is giantified to match); thus it seems the way to tell whether that's " '09" or "...og" is to know if there's a district or town on Leyte called Abuy or Abuyog.). It has two features rather similar to this sword. First, the handle is of definitely rectangular cross-section. Second, the sheath is made similarly, with an extra long front piece that forms a long tail beyond the blade cavity, while the back only covers the cavity. The sheath tip also ends by the edges flaring out and being "cut off" by a straight end (though it is angled, rather than perpendicular, as this one seems to have been). It seems old, and the front of handle and sheath are covered in lime-filled carving.

tom hyle · 23rd April 2005, 04:18 PM

BTW, a bit about the definitions given of machete; they do not (as I suppose one might expect from lexicographers?...) show a good understanding of the proper use and the physics of machete (or perhaps of cutting), in perhaps typical fashion, getting things wrong when trying to go in depth. First, though I find the relation of the name to "mace" very interesting, especially in light of the traditional use of the flat of the machete as bludgeon by police and bosses, machete is not a heavy knife or sword; there are heavy varieties, but it is by and large marked by being a lightweight sword. The old forged ones had distal taper, for all the same reasons as any other sword. The reason it's not good for (heavy) woody vegitation is certainly not that it lacks a primary bevel (which, rather subtly and best seen at the butt of the tang, many old ones do have, anyway); if machete had a high and easily noticed primary bevel/wedge section at the thickness it's at it would have a very fine edge, rather than the heavy one it does have, and chopping wood would just snap its edge out, like a butcher knife (yes, I've seen it; it's sad). No, the reason machete isn't the best for cutting hard woody vegetation (though it will do it for a good long while before the tang finally breaks; seen that, too) is that it is too thin, especially at the base, but also in the cutting area. The increased width often seen toward the tip is not to add weight, as often said; that's incidental; the mass serves another purpose, which is to absorb some of the vibration that can be such a problem, especially with thin swords.
Why is machete thin?

oh, fun times, explaining that! African influence?(check!) Cheapness (check!) The rise of spring-tempered blades (check!) Origins as a slave tool master didn't want to be too good for fighting (check!) It would really tire you out to use a heavy one all day (check!); lot of use I am there.....

tom hyle · 23rd April 2005, 04:26 PM

Wow, I don't think I'll edit that one any more (unless it offends someone and I have to); check it out; I tried to roll my eyes at my own broad net-casting, but the placement worked out just right to roll 'em up at Master's oppressiveness.....I tell youse; it was a total accident, but I really enjoy it though; even the computer can make a joke, I guess.
One other little thing about the word machete; Spanish officials in the 19th and (at least) early 20th used to apply it very broadly and liberally; How 'bout it, Therion; that Spainish military "machete" I swapped you ain't no machete, eh? It's a heavy-ass backsword.....I'd hesitate to use the Spanish term as a designation for this type, though as it's all we have I guess it makes sense. I certainly wouldn't read any thing into it as to the traditional usage of the sword.

Rick · 23rd April 2005, 05:03 PM

Tom , maybe you're looking at the wrong language for the word root .
Try macerar , Spanish to macerate .

Ian · 23rd April 2005, 06:28 PM

Thanks Tom ... I think. My eyes are having trouble reading fast enough to keep up with your thoughts. Man, you pack a lot in one paragraph.

How does what you say here mesh with Carter Rila's essay on the machete posted elsewhere on this site?

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

The reason it's not good for (heavy) woody vegitation is certainly not that it lacks a primary bevel (which, rather subtly and best seen at the butt of the tang, many old ones do, anyway); if machete had a high and easily noticed primary bevel/wedge section at the thickness it's at it would have a very fine edge, rather than the heavy one it does have, and chopping wood would just snap its edge out, like a butcher knife (yes, I've seen it; it's sad). No, the reason machete isn't the best for cutting hard woody vegetation (though it will do it for a good long while before the tang finally breaks; seen that, too) is that it is too thin, especially at the base, but also in the cutting area. The increased width often seen toward the tip is not to add weight, as often said; that's incidental; the mass serves another purpose, which is to absorb some of the vibration that can be such a problem, especially with thin swords.
Why is machete thin?

oh, fun times, explaining that! African influence?(check!) Cheapness (check!) The rise of spring-tempered blades (check!) Origins as a slave tool master didn't want to be too good for fighting (check!) It would really tire you out to use a heavy one all day (check!); lot of use I am there.....

tom hyle · 23rd April 2005, 08:32 PM

not sure; Carter & I usually agree about machete, but use very different language; he tends to talk about the action of the hand and wrist that produce the proper/true machete cut, while I tend to talk about its result; the way it moves the cutting tip through the.....workpiece? victim? Also, I don't remember if he said anything about the African connection that seems fairly clear to me. It's been a while; I'll re-read.....dang homework

Rick; doesn't mace come in under that same etymology somewhere? To chew up or to crush.....that's what I was thinking, anyway.

tom hyle · 24th April 2005, 10:36 PM

Ya know, Ian, I had started leaning toward those being scarf ends myself, but now, seeing those ear rings; the length, curvature, and end sure are similar. The face does bear a resemblance, as well, if one considers that our sword holder does seem to be "making a face" that seems to distort his lips. Thanks, Nosmo.

30th January 2005, 01:59 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Taiwan - Northern Philippines ... ... suggested by Jim. Definitely worth careful consideration since both areas were home to head hunting groups that were active well into the 20th C. The US presence in the Philippines during the first half of the 20th C. did much to reduce the practice there, and the Japanese had a similar influence in Taiwan. We actually have quite a wealth of information already on the old Forum that can help with discussion of this region. On a relationship between the Taiwanese aboriginal groups and the various tribal groups in northern Luzon, our colleague "Cy" had these comments in an earlier thread (found here http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001381.html): “FYI Taiwan formerly Formosa Island the indigenous inhabitants were made up of several Austronesian tribes commonly called the Paiwan. Of these tribes, 9 are currently recognized. It is speculated by a number of Anthropologists that the Paiwan were the forefathers/ancestors of all of the races of Austronesian people, i.e., the hill tribes of Northern Luzon, the Dayaks of Borneo, and other peoples across the Indonesian Archipelago. The weapons are not just a factor but similarities in customs, you see the Paiwan and other tribes of Taiwan/Formosa were headhunters. Some even used the tattoo in a similar manner as the Kalinga and Bontoc of Luzon, as well as the Dayaks of Borneo. I can go on and state various other similarities, etc., but I do not want to be accused of going off on a subject. The tribes of Taiwan: Atayal, Paiwan, Saisiat, Ami, Rukai, Tsou, Yami - of Orchid Island: Puyuma, Bunun.” The knives and swords of the Taiwanese aboriginal groups were also discussed and illustrated in several topics on the old Forum, of which these had the most material: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000582.html http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000858.html http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002486.html Some time ago, I wrote quite a lengthy piece on the various edged weapons of the main Taiwanese native populations (http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000858.html), with illustrations and text taken from an excellent reference: Material Culture of the Formosan Aborigines by Dr. Chen Chi-Lu, Taiwan Museum:Taipei, 1968. This reference also provides details of the dress, textiles, tools, and much of the other materials of daily living used by the various tribal groups of Taiwan. In the lexicon of knives and swords presented by Dr. Chen, there is nothing that resembles the heavy-bellied chopper that appears at the head of this topic. Nor is there a resemblance to the scabbard above. I have just read through Dr. Chen's discussion of the dress of men of these various tribes, and they did use a breechclout quite commonly (which is the attire of the gentleman in the picture above). However, the predominant material was black cloth, and many men wore a short "skirt" over the breechclout, neither of which matches the picture above. The Atayal tribe was particularly fond of making belts and beads of threaded shells, and I think the man in the photograph has a narrow belt of threaded somethings, perhaps small shells but could be bone or teeth. Shell belts are not unique and may be found elsewhere in SE Asia, so this may not be a very helpful observation. I have looked also at the line drawings of the various tribal peoples in Dr. Chen's book, and they really do not look much like the man in the picture above. I have not searched the web for pictures of the various groups, but someone might like to do that to judge the similarity or otherwise of facial features. Bottom line, however, is that there is no record I can find of a fat-bellied bolo being used by any of the Taiwanese aboriginal groups, while the knives and swords that are documented are very different in style and construction. Tribal groups of northern Luzon are numerous and diverse. With the exception of the Ilocanos, who are quite tall, the majority of "Igorotes" are small and dark skinned. The shortest are probably the Aete, who can be found on the Bataan Peninsula. There are many pictures and old post cards of the various hill tribes of northern Luzon. They are much darker skinned than the man in the photo above and have different facial features altogether. Many of the men wear breechclouts, but dissimilar to the one worn by the man above. Of the various northern Luzon groups, the Aete do have a short, fat bellied bolo but nowhere near as massive as the one carried by the man in the photo or illustrated in the two examples above. Other hill tribes, of which there are many (Ifugao, Bontoc, Kalinga, etc.), use heavy knives, some of which have quite a wide belly. Elsewhere on this site there is discussion of the hinalung and pinahig (http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/ifugao/index.html), and it is the hinalung that sometimes has a fat belly. However, even in its fat-belly form, the spine of the blade is flat and never upcurving (as in the pictures above). Moreover, the style of rattan bindings is quite different, and many of the Igorot scabbards are open faced. Another tribal group of northern Luzon is the Ilongot, very notable head hunters into the second half of the 20th C. There is an excellent book about this relatively small tribal group and its head hunting practices: Ilongot Headhunting 1883-1974: A study in society and history, by Renato Rosaldo, Stanford University Press, Stanford, 1980. The traditional knife of the Ilongot is distinctive and separate from those of the Igorotes, but is not of the heavy fat-belly form that we seek and the scabbard is totally different, being closed and adorned with thin wires on which there are tiny colored beads strung and small pieces of mother of pearl at the end. [I have several of these knives and will post pictures when I can again upload from my digital camera. ] Once again, there are virtually no data to support an association between the tribes of northern Luzon and the bolo that is the subject of this discussion. The man in the photo shows few, if any, physical features to suggest he might come from this region. There is an old article by Dean Worcester entitled Headhunters of Northern Luzon in the September, 1912 National Geographic that has many pictures of the tribal groups that live in the mountainous areas of this region. Another article by the same author, The Non-Christian People of the Philippine Islands, provides further photographs of many other Filipino tribal groups. While the text is dated and somewhat "paternalistic," the photographs are a good historical record of the times, and are helpful to the present discussion. A lot of the thoughts on this thread have been by analogy rather than based on data. Our friend, Ruel, would urge us to be more critical in our thinking on this subject. I don't wish to stifle people's comments, but what we need now is reliable information in the form of historical records or direct observation. Saying what we have not seen, or what other people have not found, only takes us so far. Ian. Last edited by Ian; 30th January 2005 at 05:48 PM.

23rd April 2005, 02:52 PM	#11
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	talibon from Leyte So I've got this talibon from Leyte. I don't know this by any mysterious nor scholarly powers; it say "Leyte" on the sheath (it says either "AbuyOg LEytE P.I." or "Abuy 09 LEytE P.I." The capitalization is just like that, except the "small" ys and g are written above the line, so they occupy the same space as the capitals (and the u, though it has a tail is giantified to match); thus it seems the way to tell whether that's " '09" or "...og" is to know if there's a district or town on Leyte called Abuy or Abuyog.). It has two features rather similar to this sword. First, the handle is of definitely rectangular cross-section. Second, the sheath is made similarly, with an extra long front piece that forms a long tail beyond the blade cavity, while the back only covers the cavity. The sheath tip also ends by the edges flaring out and being "cut off" by a straight end (though it is angled, rather than perpendicular, as this one seems to have been). It seems old, and the front of handle and sheath are covered in lime-filled carving.

23rd April 2005, 04:18 PM	#12
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	machete BTW, a bit about the definitions given of machete; they do not (as I suppose one might expect from lexicographers?...) show a good understanding of the proper use and the physics of machete (or perhaps of cutting), in perhaps typical fashion, getting things wrong when trying to go in depth. First, though I find the relation of the name to "mace" very interesting, especially in light of the traditional use of the flat of the machete as bludgeon by police and bosses, machete is not a heavy knife or sword; there are heavy varieties, but it is by and large marked by being a lightweight sword. The old forged ones had distal taper, for all the same reasons as any other sword. The reason it's not good for (heavy) woody vegitation is certainly not that it lacks a primary bevel (which, rather subtly and best seen at the butt of the tang, many old ones do have, anyway); if machete had a high and easily noticed primary bevel/wedge section at the thickness it's at it would have a very fine edge, rather than the heavy one it does have, and chopping wood would just snap its edge out, like a butcher knife (yes, I've seen it; it's sad). No, the reason machete isn't the best for cutting hard woody vegetation (though it will do it for a good long while before the tang finally breaks; seen that, too) is that it is too thin, especially at the base, but also in the cutting area. The increased width often seen toward the tip is not to add weight, as often said; that's incidental; the mass serves another purpose, which is to absorb some of the vibration that can be such a problem, especially with thin swords. Why is machete thin? oh, fun times, explaining that! African influence?(check!) Cheapness (check!) The rise of spring-tempered blades (check!) Origins as a slave tool master didn't want to be too good for fighting (check!) It would really tire you out to use a heavy one all day (check!); lot of use I am there..... Last edited by tom hyle; 24th April 2005 at 02:35 AM.

23rd April 2005, 05:03 PM	#14
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Machete Tom , maybe you're looking at the wrong language for the word root . Try macerar , Spanish to macerate .

23rd April 2005, 08:32 PM	#16
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	not sure; Carter & I usually agree about machete, but use very different language; he tends to talk about the action of the hand and wrist that produce the proper/true machete cut, while I tend to talk about its result; the way it moves the cutting tip through the.....workpiece? victim? Also, I don't remember if he said anything about the African connection that seems fairly clear to me. It's been a while; I'll re-read.....dang homework Rick; doesn't mace come in under that same etymology somewhere? To chew up or to crush.....that's what I was thinking, anyway. Last edited by tom hyle; 23rd April 2005 at 08:44 PM.

30th January 2005, 04:53 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Ian, The well presented and detailed data you post here is outstanding! Exactly what I had hoped for, supported observations and comments on the ideas and suggestions added in the discussion thus far. Knowing that your personal knowledge and expertise on the weapons and culture of these regions is well established and based largely on travel and first hand field study throughout them, places your observations in key importance and qualifies the material discussed thus far accordingly. While I understand Ruel's emphasis on critical thinking based on academically based discussion, I think that in our 'discovery' stage of analysis it is important to 'put all cards on the table',so to speak. I think that reading the various thoughts and perceptions posted on this thread, whether they are plausible or not, are important to be aware of, and as I have noted, are very educational to those of us not as well versed in this particular sector of weapons study. In the reverse sense of identification, it is sometimes important to consider what something is not, and progressively eliminate, to reach the most plausible conclusion of what it is. Your excellent and categoric attention to the thoughts discussed to this point on this elusive chopper form establishes an important benchmark for us to continue with direction, and as you have well stated, bring in supported and referenced data to move toward the most plausible, or even better, final conclusion. Thanks very much Ian ! Very best regards, Jim

30th January 2005, 05:20 AM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Great post, Ian. I once casually mentioned that I consider what we do on this forum as a kind of "sword free-association". This thread is a perfect example of this. I also like Jim's playing card metaphor. I offered up the only observation I felt comfortable making. My "cards" if you will. By itself, that observation is useless. Factor in the other comments, and we may get somewhere. Maybe. If not, I imagine someone will dig this thread up when more information comes to light. shrug

30th January 2005, 06:16 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Jim and Andrew: Thank you for the kind words, but I think I have probably said enough on this topic for now. Look forward to hearing what others think. This type of discussion does not come along very often. Hal has thrown us a real challenge here, and I do want to thank him and Tom for bringing these bolos to our attention. This thread has the potential to be another "Black Sea Yataghan" saga or, dare we say it, another "Shaver Cool." Cheers, Ian.

30th January 2005, 04:39 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I do want to try to make another point that may be too subtle for my linguistic ability at the moment: Let's try: I don't consider the "angle" at the base of the known Mandaya blades to be part of the blade, entirely; it occurs at the joining of shaft (ricassoesque feature) and blade; thus it is essentially similar to say the forward lean of sabres, which occurs in the tang, leaving the blade per se (ie the cutting part) to be a simple curve, though the overall affect is of a re-curve. Such adjustments that are not in the blade as such seem to me to be more fluid, both within a given culture and between neighboring groups (see angle variations on sabres, or on talibon/garabs, or on kampilan). In other words, though certainly these blades do have a slight curvature, and the known Mandaya swords none, the actual blades per se are otherwise very similar, and it is a slight curve; thus to me it could be variations on a theme, with the biggest difference perhaps being the lack of an unsharp shaft/ricassoe. I don't think I sufficiently explained myself about this seeming relation earlier; hopefully I've clarified.

30th January 2005, 06:02 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Great post, Ian. Unless or until someone finds a good reference to the tribes of the Philippines, we're left guessing. However, I'd be willing to bet money that, when we finally do figure out where these blades come from, it'll be a Philippine tribe, probably in the north, and that Therion's blade was brought home from a WWII soldier. As an (apparent) aside, remember when the space shuttle Challenger blew up? The New York stock Exchange correctly figured out that components from Morton Thiokol had caused the explosion (Thiokol stock dropped far more steeply than did the stock of all other shuttle contractors). It took an expert commission months to figure out that it was the O-rings on the booster rockets built by Morton Thiokol. Now, the stock market didn't have any inside information, but it did serve as a great way for agglomerating a bunch of disparate information into an accurate result. It was accurate, in part, because people had money riding on the outcome. This is the whole basis for the Iowa Elections Market and other such predictive markets. Getting back to this blade, I think we're seeing the same "market of ideas" here. None of us knows what it is, but (combined with the picture) a bunch of us are independently coming up with the same kinds of answers. My guess is that, as a forum, we're probably right, although I'm not sure each of us is individually. In Going back to what Ian said, I'd like to see definitive evidence. However, I wouldn't discount the meanderings we've done so far. Fun case! F

30th January 2005, 06:30 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I sent an email to the owner of the site on the Shuar along with a copy of the jpg. and a link to this thread . Maybe he will respond . I've got a couple of questions for Hal and Tom . Does the blade appear to be hand forged ? The sword we're discussing has a nice silvery 'sheen' on the blade up near the guard . Would that indicate a factory made blade ?

30th January 2005, 08:17 PM	#8
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	One note I'll make. If we are still considering Northern PI as a candidate for this bolo, and we assume that the man in the picture is representative of the culture from which this bolo was found, then I believe we can limit ourselves only to the non-Christian tribes of Luzon (Christian groups at the turn of the century were Christian due to their subjugation to Spanish hegemony, as such they would A. not be in a loin-cloth B. not be considered headhunters). And if we limit ourselves to headhunters in Luzon, then we limit ourselves pretty much to the mountain tribes, called Igorot (depending who you talk to Illongots could be called Igorot, my mom is adamant that this is not the case, but Ive seen it pop up in period writing). That being the case, as noted already by Ian, while I cannot say I am any expert on the Igorot tribes (used to be a good network of websites on all the different Igorot tribes, but I believe it went down a couple years back) I dont believe Ive ever seen anything like this bolo associated with them.

30th January 2005, 09:02 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Federico, "preach nah, don' play w'it!"

30th January 2005, 10:45 PM	#10
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Definitely a forged, layered steel blade. It does seem to have had repeated polishings over the years, despite a lack of pitting, as the okar exhibits lines that are almost worn off, and others where there are none to reflect them, giving one to suspect those have worn entirely off. The surface exhibits a light grey patina, just about one shade darker than bare steel, over what looks like a nicely smooth old native polish.

23rd April 2005, 04:26 PM	#13
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Wow, I don't think I'll edit that one any more (unless it offends someone and I have to); check it out; I tried to roll my eyes at my own broad net-casting, but the placement worked out just right to roll 'em up at Master's oppressiveness.....I tell youse; it was a total accident, but I really enjoy it though; even the computer can make a joke, I guess. One other little thing about the word machete; Spanish officials in the 19th and (at least) early 20th used to apply it very broadly and liberally; How 'bout it, Therion; that Spainish military "machete" I swapped you ain't no machete, eh? It's a heavy-ass backsword.....I'd hesitate to use the Spanish term as a designation for this type, though as it's all we have I guess it makes sense. I certainly wouldn't read any thing into it as to the traditional usage of the sword.

24th April 2005, 10:36 PM	#17
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Ya know, Ian, I had started leaning toward those being scarf ends myself, but now, seeing those ear rings; the length, curvature, and end sure are similar. The face does bear a resemblance, as well, if one considers that our sword holder does seem to be "making a face" that seems to distort his lips. Thanks, Nosmo.