17th Century Walloon swords

Triarii · 3rd July 2023, 04:35 PM

In the case of these types, Amsterdam was a major exporter of arms and armour, including items that they acted as middlemen for. The 'Sahagun' mark and Passau running wolf are generally considered to be a sign that the blade was made in Germany for onward export by the Dutch. The XXX Amsterdam control mark is often found under the hilt or overlapped by it, indicating assembly after inspection in Amsterdam, though there is some evidence of hilts also being made in Germany, such as at Koln (Cologne).
Vast amounts of arms and armour were imported from the continent by both sides in the English Civil War, including from Holland where they sent buyers and there is at least one Parliamentary record of an order for '200 swords with Dutch blades'.
The English 'Walloon' sword may predate these, and carries on into the late C17th. Similar style, but often with a cylindrical pommel, sometimes ribbed, with two side bars to the knucklebow and no thumb ring. The shell guards are smaller with piercings only in the middle part of the plate. I have one, that from the overall size, is probably for use on foot.

Radboud · 3rd July 2023, 09:13 PM

Thank you for adding your knowledge to this. Would you have any images of other blades with this Amsterdam mark? I’ve looked but not had a lot of luck.

werecow · 16th October 2025, 01:58 AM

Quote:

This argument is made in the French magazine; Gazette des armes No. 473 March 2015

Unfortunately this link is now defunct. Does anyone still have a working link or a copy that they would be willing to share?

Also, will leave a link Gabri's latest video on these here for those interested in the type.

Radboud · 16th October 2025, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

Unfortunately this link is now defunct. Does anyone still have a working link or a copy that they would be willing to share?

Also, will leave a link Gabri's latest video on these here for those interested in the type.

I enjoyed Gabri's video, unfortunatly much the same theories about the origin of this type. I think we can all agree that the too many examples survive for it to have been a militia's sword. However that doesn't exclude them from having been for a state armory. We see plenty of examples from other European armories that housed masses of equipment.

The issue that I have with the other theory, the tripple X mark belonging to Dutch merchants or guild who onsold the swords, is that we only see this mark on this specific pattern of sword. If it was a merchants' mark we would see it on other types of swords.

Below are screen shots I took of the article. To be honest, from what I read through Google Translate, it doesn't add much to the discussion either. Looking at their example, it also has a number of variations to the typical examples you see in the digital catalogue of the Dutch Army Museum (search for "Waalse degen").

werecow · 16th October 2025, 12:28 PM

Thanks Radboud! Time to practice mon français (even if it does not resolve this particular discussion).

EDIT: Also, interesting that this one has a TOLEDO(?) inscription and simple holes iso stars in the guard plates.

ulfberth · 17th October 2025, 12:09 PM

It has to do with economy and profit; these swords were easier to produce in large quantities and thus suitable for sale.
They were very versatile swords, practical and useful in many circumstances by both infantry and cavalry, etc. The Walloon sword remained in use for over 100 years, primarily in the Netherlands, Germany, and France, and also has many variants. Many have withstood the test of time, but in most, the plates in the guard rings have disappeared.

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2025, 01:02 PM

Thank you guys for this valuable discussion.
I have this example which has been neglected in research for decades, and have always simply presumed it was English, and probably of c. 1690s.
In reading these entries, I am curious if my presumption was anywhere near correct.
I hope with the knowledge apparent here for either confirmation or more informed observations.
Its rough, I know, but I tend to leave examples unrestored.

Radboud · 18th October 2025, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

EDIT: Also, interesting that this one has a TOLEDO(?) inscription and simple holes iso stars in the guard plates.

There are several other subtle flaws with this example that lead me to suspect it's been restored. As you observe, the pattern of the piercings plus the missing star detail on the holes makes it likely that the plates are replacements.

Furthermore, the pommel shape is off, and it's missing some of the finer details again. Plus, the point where the knuckle bow is joined to the pommel is recessed, something I haven't seen on any originals.

On the TOL inscription, this isn't surprising; a lot of these and other swords for this region have spurious Spanish markings (the most obvious being the Sahagum) and given the history Spain has here, you'd expect their sword smiths to be associated with quality, much like Andreara Ferrara in the British Isles.

16th October 2025, 12:28 PM	#5
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 617	Thanks Radboud! Time to practice mon français (even if it does not resolve this particular discussion). EDIT: Also, interesting that this one has a TOLEDO(?) inscription and simple holes iso stars in the guard plates. Last edited by werecow; 16th October 2025 at 07:00 PM.

17th October 2025, 12:09 PM	#6
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 439	Walloon It has to do with economy and profit; these swords were easier to produce in large quantities and thus suitable for sale. They were very versatile swords, practical and useful in many circumstances by both infantry and cavalry, etc. The Walloon sword remained in use for over 100 years, primarily in the Netherlands, Germany, and France, and also has many variants. Many have withstood the test of time, but in most, the plates in the guard rings have disappeared.

17th October 2025, 01:02 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	English? walloon? Thank you guys for this valuable discussion. I have this example which has been neglected in research for decades, and have always simply presumed it was English, and probably of c. 1690s. In reading these entries, I am curious if my presumption was anywhere near correct. I hope with the knowledge apparent here for either confirmation or more informed observations. Its rough, I know, but I tend to leave examples unrestored. Attached Images

3rd July 2023, 04:35 PM	#1
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 149	In the case of these types, Amsterdam was a major exporter of arms and armour, including items that they acted as middlemen for. The 'Sahagun' mark and Passau running wolf are generally considered to be a sign that the blade was made in Germany for onward export by the Dutch. The XXX Amsterdam control mark is often found under the hilt or overlapped by it, indicating assembly after inspection in Amsterdam, though there is some evidence of hilts also being made in Germany, such as at Koln (Cologne). Vast amounts of arms and armour were imported from the continent by both sides in the English Civil War, including from Holland where they sent buyers and there is at least one Parliamentary record of an order for '200 swords with Dutch blades'. The English 'Walloon' sword may predate these, and carries on into the late C17th. Similar style, but often with a cylindrical pommel, sometimes ribbed, with two side bars to the knucklebow and no thumb ring. The shell guards are smaller with piercings only in the middle part of the plate. I have one, that from the overall size, is probably for use on foot.

3rd July 2023, 09:13 PM	#2
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 299	Thank you for adding your knowledge to this. Would you have any images of other blades with this Amsterdam mark? I’ve looked but not had a lot of luck.