any ideas ?????

[10thRoyal]

No offense taken! It does look like I was quite a bit off the mark. Always happy to learn something new .

[Maj-Biffy Snodgrass]

Here are the unusual and large paired antler hilt and silver ferule knives that came with the pair of swords, they are 48 cm long from tip of blade to tip of the hilt in a straight line and have 5 mm thick spines at the hilt, also very unusual for the south east Asian regions, one cleaned here the other not, I will when both are cleaned etch with lime juice to bring out the hamon's clearly.
These are for me a pistol grip type like a Badek - Badik, which are seen coming from southern Thailand and in the BKK armoury museum in many numbers, so maybe they had the same in southern Cambodia which is my suggestion, still no actual proof that they are though.
The silver ferrules though look pretty bog standard for dha and daab right across the region, even into Burma, so these to are a hard one to pinpoint, definitely unusual and all coming from the same estate in eastern Uk.
Any ideas would be interesting to hear.

[Ian]

Hi Snody:

I've looked at these several times trying to think where in mainland SE Asia they may have been made. It's as though they are from everywhere and nowhere.

I'm inclined to think they are composites with a heavy influence from a European. First, the blades look to me as though the tips have been reworked. The thin fullers run through the end of the blade, which suggests that the spear point was not the original form. The thin fuller running just beneath the spine reminds me of some northern Thai/Lao/Southern Yunan daab, and these might have come from our old friends the Achang from HuSa in southern Yunan. The hilts look standard Thai/Lao to me, and perhaps not very old.

The two long knives are interesting. The large stag hilts look too big to be from the small deer in mainland SE Asia. Hence I think another source such as Europe or the U.S. The fittings are standard Thai/Burmese/Shan ... The down curved hilts are reminiscent of some ivory-hilted Burmese examples. The reasonably heavy blade is also consistent with some Burmese examples, but other areas of the region also had similar heavy-bladed knives.

Although the knives and swords came from the same collection, they don't necessarily have to be from the same region. Pushed to identify the origins of these interesting pieces, I would say they each have mixed parentage with evidence of newer hilts added to older blades. Given that they came from a British collection, I would say a recent owner had modified them and replaced the hilts. Some of the reworking of these pieces was likely done in mainland SE Asia.

[Maj-Biffy Snodgrass]

Obviously Ian you can see that these are not old and have been doctored up just by these original auction pics, which quite clearly show both pairs to have considerable age and the swords even have the original wall hanger wire on them to from when they were displayed, if you can not see age here then you must need better glasses, I think my point is proven, ''ANY IDEAS ON THESE'' if not insults would be gratefully received, oddball's like this that do not conform to regular pattern's or types - styles do often turn up and with good age to, which is why I am still interested in antique edged weapons after many year's in the game, oddball pieces prove that nothing was set in stone and especially from south east Asian regions where in most cases the swords and other weapons we see from the region are as unique as the people who used them, I have an open mind and it is for me and many others like me the oddball pieces and non bog standard pieces that show us the great variety to be had from the region that were collected in colonial times. Snody

[Iain]

Just to throw another opinion in the mix... I see nothing with either the swords or the knives that seems 'off' for the region.

Antler is commonly used across Thailand, Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam for knives. While perhaps not the most common hilt material it is certainly not unusual.

The swords are certainly unusual, but the tip profile, fullering and hilts all conform to other styles we know. I think the barge idea is probably spot on, although its difficult to pin down an exact attribution.

[Maj-Biffy Snodgrass]

Hi Iain, I know, it is perfectly usual for such horn to be used throughout the history of Siam and other countries throughout the region on knives large and small, China to, Sambar stag horn to as the type of deer were in south east Asia, and it is sambar stag on these hilts for sure.

Here are just a few pics to back up the idea of the royal barge weapons, back slung swords etc, I see no reason why these could not be pairs, or singles, steersman were known to carry paired swords on the royal barges, but there is little information about them in English or Thai available.
Or perhaps they are from another region further south where other klong barges were used with fighting men aboard to guard royals and high ranked officials etc.
Royal vanguard marines also carried swords and some in pairs, could be these are from one of the many barges filled with up front men who all carried swords and other weapons as royal guard and police waterborne marine vanguard clearing men, I will likely never know the whole storey behind them.
Siam was a place with many klongs - canals and waterways, still is today, many waterborne armies used them as was the same in Cambodia in the 19thc into the early 20th which is the date I would suggest for my pair of swords, and also the large knives, which actually do feel like back hand fighting blades in the hand, or badek -badik pistol grip types.
I could add so much more but for now this will do to show some similar types in use in earlier times in old early 20thc pics, and some from today.

[Maj-Biffy Snodgrass]

From the original auction pics, just to make sure that no one thinks these swords are as suggested altered in any way, HERE IS A CLOSE UP OF THE BLADE TIP !.
They are both as purchased and original. Snody.