Taiwan Paiwan Formasa sword/dagger

Maj-Biffy Snodgrass · 1st May 2023, 06:17 PM

Looks very suspect to my wandering eye, the leather washers and aluminium rivets look very wrong for the region considering other more native ethno pieces I have seen are set with resin and no hilt rivets or pins, I suspect it is one of the tourists types that lost its hilt and got a replacement at some stage by a non Asian restorer but one with some skills in knife making maybe ?, it certainly looks a better job than the original tourist type hilts, for me whoever did it did the blade a favor.
A friend has one in its original form, if I remember correctly the hilt was dark wood with a small ring ferrule in thin sheet type brass, possibly had lizards carved on it to.

Snody

Ian · 2nd May 2023, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maj-Biffy Snodgrass

Looks very suspect to my wandering eye, the leather washers and aluminium rivets look very wrong for the region ...

I believe the consensus is the blade is legit, the hilt a replacement. and the scabbard a modern Paiwan item. The present hilt looks like it might have been done in the original culture with the bamboo scales, but the rivets and washers are not traditional of course.

Maj-Biffy Snodgrass · 20th May 2023, 11:50 PM

Sorry Iain but I see no scales here just a simple through tang with washer and peened end, the spacer washers on the top and bottom of the hilt could be coconut shell, or leather as i suspect, the 2 hilt pins - rivets are certainly not looking like an Asian fix as you noted, personally I see a tourist blade and scabbard with a new western made hilt, I say this because a friend has one just like it with a wooden hilt that has carved men either side which I handled recently.
Much the same as the one here shown in a previous post by Wayne.

Snody.

Copycat · 23rd May 2023, 07:29 PM

Interesting. The discussion is still lively.

There similarities but also differences with tourists swords. A big one is lamination on the blade.

There more hints of the hilt being Asian then western.
- hilt is bamboo (Asian product)
- peening of the tang is also used in (antique) asia
- hilt pins are also not exclusive western techniques

Kind regards,

Rick · 23rd May 2023, 08:54 PM

A search of the ethno forum using the title of this post will reveal a very long discussion on Taiwanese swords.
I'd like to link to it, but I'm using my Wife's i pad and can't seem to get it done (windows I'm familiar with) not so much with apple... Maybe a moderator can do it for me pls.

link:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=rukai

Ian · 24th May 2023, 06:14 AM

Here's a link for starters: www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11828

The Philip Tom article is no longer available.

Maj-Biffy Snodgrass · 24th May 2023, 02:12 PM

I simply meant to point out that there are no scales on the re hilt as suggested by Ian, it is done in Asian style round sectional Bamboo with rat tail tang and peened over a washer at its end sure, which is more Asian in style.
But, I have seen this on some of the tourist ones of 1960s and 70s age to, some have a washer and peened tang end, there are many of these floating the markets of the uk that were bring backs from the 60s and 70s, some very well made and can be taken for older ones, others not so well made and are obvious tourist market pieces, they often can be seen at auctions here to, even as African tribal swords as I have seen recently in one auction.

Other than the rivets, the peened tang with washer is certainly how the hilts are finished originally having had a couple of the originals myself over the years.
But it can not speak so it can not tell its origin storey or age, so all is speculation and guesswork as I see it including my own ideas on it just as it is with many other Asian ethnographic weapons that are quirky pieces that do not conform to traditional patterns, or re hilts like this one, it is what makes collecting interesting for me meeting new and unusual pieces that are not boring old run of the mill.

Also, and no offence meant at all here, Bamboo may be an Asian plant but it can be bought in most western countries very easily and in many types today, garden centres have even got Tonkin cane and solid iron bamboo these days as well as rattan in natural dried raw state, split rattan to for chair seat restoration etc.

As far as the lamination that can be seen in the blade my friends tourist one has the same, they were likely made by traditional methods even in the 60s and 70s so for me that says nothing about it being an old blade with re hilt done and then put into a tourist scabbard, which would make it a marriage of different parts perhaps possibly made to deceive.

What I personally think you have here which is only my own observation obviously is a well done re hilt on a 1960s 70s early tourist sword from the region that is one of the better ones with better blade, likely earlier than many of the lesser ones from later 70s, where it was done who knows ?? but it is not a marriage of parts, the hilt being the only newer part, the scabbard and blade being original, tourist or not.

1st May 2023, 06:17 PM	#1
Maj-Biffy Snodgrass Member Join Date: Mar 2023 Posts: 66	Taiwan knife Looks very suspect to my wandering eye, the leather washers and aluminium rivets look very wrong for the region considering other more native ethno pieces I have seen are set with resin and no hilt rivets or pins, I suspect it is one of the tourists types that lost its hilt and got a replacement at some stage by a non Asian restorer but one with some skills in knife making maybe ?, it certainly looks a better job than the original tourist type hilts, for me whoever did it did the blade a favor. A friend has one in its original form, if I remember correctly the hilt was dark wood with a small ring ferrule in thin sheet type brass, possibly had lizards carved on it to. Snody

20th May 2023, 11:50 PM	#3
Maj-Biffy Snodgrass Member Join Date: Mar 2023 Posts: 66	scales ?? Sorry Iain but I see no scales here just a simple through tang with washer and peened end, the spacer washers on the top and bottom of the hilt could be coconut shell, or leather as i suspect, the 2 hilt pins - rivets are certainly not looking like an Asian fix as you noted, personally I see a tourist blade and scabbard with a new western made hilt, I say this because a friend has one just like it with a wooden hilt that has carved men either side which I handled recently. Much the same as the one here shown in a previous post by Wayne. Snody. Attached Images

23rd May 2023, 08:54 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Formosa Hill Tribe Swords A search of the ethno forum using the title of this post will reveal a very long discussion on Taiwanese swords. I'd like to link to it, but I'm using my Wife's i pad and can't seem to get it done (windows I'm familiar with) not so much with apple... Maybe a moderator can do it for me pls. link: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=rukai Last edited by Rick; 25th May 2023 at 01:56 AM. Reason: added link

24th May 2023, 02:12 PM	#7
Maj-Biffy Snodgrass Member Join Date: Mar 2023 Posts: 66	simple observations !! I simply meant to point out that there are no scales on the re hilt as suggested by Ian, it is done in Asian style round sectional Bamboo with rat tail tang and peened over a washer at its end sure, which is more Asian in style. But, I have seen this on some of the tourist ones of 1960s and 70s age to, some have a washer and peened tang end, there are many of these floating the markets of the uk that were bring backs from the 60s and 70s, some very well made and can be taken for older ones, others not so well made and are obvious tourist market pieces, they often can be seen at auctions here to, even as African tribal swords as I have seen recently in one auction. Other than the rivets, the peened tang with washer is certainly how the hilts are finished originally having had a couple of the originals myself over the years. But it can not speak so it can not tell its origin storey or age, so all is speculation and guesswork as I see it including my own ideas on it just as it is with many other Asian ethnographic weapons that are quirky pieces that do not conform to traditional patterns, or re hilts like this one, it is what makes collecting interesting for me meeting new and unusual pieces that are not boring old run of the mill. Also, and no offence meant at all here, Bamboo may be an Asian plant but it can be bought in most western countries very easily and in many types today, garden centres have even got Tonkin cane and solid iron bamboo these days as well as rattan in natural dried raw state, split rattan to for chair seat restoration etc. As far as the lamination that can be seen in the blade my friends tourist one has the same, they were likely made by traditional methods even in the 60s and 70s so for me that says nothing about it being an old blade with re hilt done and then put into a tourist scabbard, which would make it a marriage of different parts perhaps possibly made to deceive. What I personally think you have here which is only my own observation obviously is a well done re hilt on a 1960s 70s early tourist sword from the region that is one of the better ones with better blade, likely earlier than many of the lesser ones from later 70s, where it was done who knows ?? but it is not a marriage of parts, the hilt being the only newer part, the scabbard and blade being original, tourist or not.

23rd May 2023, 07:29 PM	#4
Copycat Member Join Date: Apr 2023 Posts: 39	Interesting. The discussion is still lively. There similarities but also differences with tourists swords. A big one is lamination on the blade. There more hints of the hilt being Asian then western. - hilt is bamboo (Asian product) - peening of the tang is also used in (antique) asia - hilt pins are also not exclusive western techniques Kind regards,

24th May 2023, 06:14 AM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Here's a link for starters: www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11828 The Philip Tom article is no longer available.