Swish of the Kris - For Wayan :)

nechesh · 26th June 2006, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannonmn

Tx for info, I will have to get that book (looks for Amazon bookmark.)

I sent you a PM about this.

BluErf · 27th June 2006, 02:50 AM

Hi Cannonmn,

No problems; I'm more than happy to have the discussion on your moro kris brought over to this thread.

Maybe you could do a little search on past threads for "kris" and you will see many much finer examples of Moro krises owned by other forumnites here.

Its an interesting question about whether my kris is a separate-ganja piece or not. Initially, I thought a line on the metal itself would suggest a separate ganja, however, recently I learned that sometimes, such a line was chiselled into the blade to give an illusion of a separate ganja. So I'm not so sure anymore. My piece has a line, and a slight wedge-shaped gap at the aring end. Not sure if that is proof of a separate ganja.

BluErf · 27th June 2006, 02:57 AM

The gandik side. Hope the picture fits.

Andrew · 27th June 2006, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

The gandik side. Hope the picture fits.

Great macro shots. It sure looks like the grain of the metal at the base of the blade (where a separate ganja would be) runs perpendicular to the length of the blade.

kai · 27th June 2006, 06:52 AM

Yup, I'd also bet on separate gangya, Kai Wee. This seam shows the usual irregularities from forging as well as from minor corrosion (which wouldn't be restricted to one side of an engraved line but would rather go "through" it, usually) and the grain of the metal pretty much nails it. A reetching (I'd try mere vinegar) would make the latter much more obvious and most certainly bring out a nice pattern for this great blade!

Regards,
Kai

MABAGANI · 27th June 2006, 08:33 AM

Salam Pak Braulio,
Anyway, you ask, "So what is the truth about the whole american expat thing...? i've heard different rumors and such."
That is a fair question, and it deserves an honest and complete explanation. And, by the way, if you are so inclined, and you do not object, it would be great for you to post what I am about to write on that forum so other posters there can better understand. However, if this would jeopardize your standing on that forum, i.e. cause you to be thrown off of it, then please don't take that risk.
I am an American expat, and I live in a remote village not far from the cultural heart of Bali, which is Ubud. I am married to a prominent Balinese lady, and we have three sons. We live in her ancestral village, so I almost as married to her family, and my village, as I am to her.
We have one of only two on-line computers in the village. The other on-line computer is also ours, but it is located in another family compound, a family member, who is working on his doctorate degree in anthropology and ethnomusicology. We share our computer with several other village members who are advancing in their English, as well as a small group of kris enthusiasts including the well known Pande Retug. Without getting into a whole lot of unnecessary details, my wife and I are considerably involved with numerous NGOs and other charitable organizations, as well as cultural organizations throughout Bali. Somewhat embracing the old adage that "charity begins at home" I spend most of my time working within my own village, and with these people that are my family, and that I love dearly.
In signing up for eewers, we, (meaning our kris club), decided to use the very generic Balinese name Wayan, which simply designates first born, and does not even have a gender, as both first born men and women of average caste status are named Wayan. Our "kris club" for lack of a better word to define it, came about quite spontaneously over many long discussions with my fellow villagers. Eventually these conversations boiled down to the realization that aside from Western scholars, very little about the kris di Bali has been written by Balinese.
So, that is the background of this situation. I do most of the writing, but not all, as my cousin, whose name is Wayan ...the young man pursuing his doctorate, has excellent English skills and has lived and studied in the states for over five years.
At first blush I can see how someone could consider our membership in eewers as deceptive, as we did not explain this right off. At the time it seemed unnecessary, as we were all speaking in one voice, representing mutually held opinions about kris di Bali.
As an "adopted Balinese" I very much follow what has in fact been written about kris scholars concerning the Balinese kris, and I will not make apologies for that:
As wong Maospahit, or people of Majapahit, the Balinese are the closest direct descendants of the original masters of kris making. By the time of the fall of the Majapahit empire in the late 15th century, most all of the best artisans had fled Java for Bali, (refer Edward Frey, The Kris, page 45). This exodus of artists from Java to the remaining Hindu areas such as Bali and Lombok was caused by the Islamic prohibition of living images in art or utilitarian objects imposed by the Muslims, who were ever increasingly taking control of Java. Kris scholars acknowledge that the Balinese kris, which is significantly different than its Javanese cousin, is most closely aligned to the original kris which evolved in the Hindu-Buddhist traditions of the Kediri, Singosari and Majapahit Dynasties.
That is not folklore, theory, or speculation. Rather it is historically documented truth, and as far as we are concerned, there is no reason to walk on egg shells when discussing that truth. So, that's it. Salam, and Om Santi, Santi, Santi, Om from Bali.

nechesh · 27th June 2006, 02:43 PM

Well, since it would appear that our friend Wayan does still have a voice of sorts on this forum i would suggest that you might want to consider that he is not quite coming clean on his entire history.

This is kinda like the fox explaining to the chickens what he was doing in the hen house.

And just to continue a debate Wayan and i were having when he was banned, Yes, many artisians left Jawa to go to Bali when Islam took over. The laws of Islam do call for a ban on the representation of living creatures in art, bith human and animal AFAIK. HOWEVER, as i pointed out to Wayan, these rules aren't so cut and dry as he seems to think as can nbe proven by the existence of raksasa hilts in both Jawa and Madura as well as bird and horse headed hilts from Madura. I have seen priest figures holding a flower as a common motif from (i think) east Jawa or Madura. THIS is not folklore, theory, or speculation. Rather it is historically documented truth.

But what do i know, i'm just a guy from Cincinnati.

27th June 2006, 02:50 AM	#2
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Cannonmn, No problems; I'm more than happy to have the discussion on your moro kris brought over to this thread. Maybe you could do a little search on past threads for "kris" and you will see many much finer examples of Moro krises owned by other forumnites here. Its an interesting question about whether my kris is a separate-ganja piece or not. Initially, I thought a line on the metal itself would suggest a separate ganja, however, recently I learned that sometimes, such a line was chiselled into the blade to give an illusion of a separate ganja. So I'm not so sure anymore. My piece has a line, and a slight wedge-shaped gap at the aring end. Not sure if that is proof of a separate ganja. Attached Images

27th June 2006, 02:57 AM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	The gandik side. Hope the picture fits. Attached Images

27th June 2006, 08:33 AM	#6
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	From Wayan Salam Pak Braulio, Anyway, you ask, "So what is the truth about the whole american expat thing...? i've heard different rumors and such." That is a fair question, and it deserves an honest and complete explanation. And, by the way, if you are so inclined, and you do not object, it would be great for you to post what I am about to write on that forum so other posters there can better understand. However, if this would jeopardize your standing on that forum, i.e. cause you to be thrown off of it, then please don't take that risk. I am an American expat, and I live in a remote village not far from the cultural heart of Bali, which is Ubud. I am married to a prominent Balinese lady, and we have three sons. We live in her ancestral village, so I almost as married to her family, and my village, as I am to her. We have one of only two on-line computers in the village. The other on-line computer is also ours, but it is located in another family compound, a family member, who is working on his doctorate degree in anthropology and ethnomusicology. We share our computer with several other village members who are advancing in their English, as well as a small group of kris enthusiasts including the well known Pande Retug. Without getting into a whole lot of unnecessary details, my wife and I are considerably involved with numerous NGOs and other charitable organizations, as well as cultural organizations throughout Bali. Somewhat embracing the old adage that "charity begins at home" I spend most of my time working within my own village, and with these people that are my family, and that I love dearly. In signing up for eewers, we, (meaning our kris club), decided to use the very generic Balinese name Wayan, which simply designates first born, and does not even have a gender, as both first born men and women of average caste status are named Wayan. Our "kris club" for lack of a better word to define it, came about quite spontaneously over many long discussions with my fellow villagers. Eventually these conversations boiled down to the realization that aside from Western scholars, very little about the kris di Bali has been written by Balinese. So, that is the background of this situation. I do most of the writing, but not all, as my cousin, whose name is Wayan ...the young man pursuing his doctorate, has excellent English skills and has lived and studied in the states for over five years. At first blush I can see how someone could consider our membership in eewers as deceptive, as we did not explain this right off. At the time it seemed unnecessary, as we were all speaking in one voice, representing mutually held opinions about kris di Bali. As an "adopted Balinese" I very much follow what has in fact been written about kris scholars concerning the Balinese kris, and I will not make apologies for that: As wong Maospahit, or people of Majapahit, the Balinese are the closest direct descendants of the original masters of kris making. By the time of the fall of the Majapahit empire in the late 15th century, most all of the best artisans had fled Java for Bali, (refer Edward Frey, The Kris, page 45). This exodus of artists from Java to the remaining Hindu areas such as Bali and Lombok was caused by the Islamic prohibition of living images in art or utilitarian objects imposed by the Muslims, who were ever increasingly taking control of Java. Kris scholars acknowledge that the Balinese kris, which is significantly different than its Javanese cousin, is most closely aligned to the original kris which evolved in the Hindu-Buddhist traditions of the Kediri, Singosari and Majapahit Dynasties. That is not folklore, theory, or speculation. Rather it is historically documented truth, and as far as we are concerned, there is no reason to walk on egg shells when discussing that truth. So, that's it. Salam, and Om Santi, Santi, Santi, Om from Bali.

27th June 2006, 06:52 AM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Yup, I'd also bet on separate gangya, Kai Wee. This seam shows the usual irregularities from forging as well as from minor corrosion (which wouldn't be restricted to one side of an engraved line but would rather go "through" it, usually) and the grain of the metal pretty much nails it. A reetching (I'd try mere vinegar) would make the latter much more obvious and most certainly bring out a nice pattern for this great blade! Regards, Kai

27th June 2006, 02:43 PM	#7
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well, since it would appear that our friend Wayan does still have a voice of sorts on this forum i would suggest that you might want to consider that he is not quite coming clean on his entire history. This is kinda like the fox explaining to the chickens what he was doing in the hen house. And just to continue a debate Wayan and i were having when he was banned, Yes, many artisians left Jawa to go to Bali when Islam took over. The laws of Islam do call for a ban on the representation of living creatures in art, bith human and animal AFAIK. HOWEVER, as i pointed out to Wayan, these rules aren't so cut and dry as he seems to think as can nbe proven by the existence of raksasa hilts in both Jawa and Madura as well as bird and horse headed hilts from Madura. I have seen priest figures holding a flower as a common motif from (i think) east Jawa or Madura. THIS is not folklore, theory, or speculation. Rather it is historically documented truth. But what do i know, i'm just a guy from Cincinnati.