Dating the Schiavons sword

urbanspaceman · 31st March 2023, 02:00 PM

I came across this rather ugly (IMHO) example and felt I should draw it to your attention in case it was of interest. It is currently up for auction.
This is the description translated roughly from German:
Lattice basket Schiavona, Italy around 1700, double-edged, slender blade, blade with patina and with slight traces of corrosion, openwork in the upper part, iron, somewhat loosened, cut basket hilt, with straight cross-guard, wooden grip. about 100cm

Cathey · 31st March 2023, 11:39 PM

Hi Mark, thanks for your offer, I don't mind how long it takes as I have not been able to track down a copy.

Cheers Cathey

Cathey · 1st April 2023, 02:03 AM

Hi urbanspaceman

Yes I did see this one, the blade is nice and early Italian I think, but the hilt is very odd to me. Looks like it has been played with.

Cheers Cathey

urbanspaceman · 1st April 2023, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi urbanspaceman

Yes I did see this one, the blade is nice and early Italian I think, but the hilt is very odd to me. Looks like it has been played with.

Cheers Cathey

A composite piece... yes. It is certainly a mess, but would still work.

Interested Party · 1st April 2023, 02:09 PM

Keith, the length of the handle appears to be longer than average. The blade seems slender. Which to me gives the impression that this was a stabbing weapon. A long time ago I remember reading that these were primarily thrusting weapons but looking at all the examples of blades on this thread and on the forum, it seems that there were possibly several schools of thought associated with this hilt.

Cathy, these may be questions bordering on my being simple minded, did the average length of the handle change over time? Did the balance of the blade shift as well? Am I correct in thinking that many of these were cut and thrust weapons? In your research for the article did you find that they became more thrust orientated as the hilt became more intricate? Or did they continue to be manufactured for a diversity of fencing styles?

urbanspaceman · 1st April 2023, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Keith, the length of the handle appears to be longer than average. The blade seems slender. Which to me gives the impression that this was a stabbing weapon. A long time ago I remember reading that these were primarily thrusting weapons but looking at all the examples of blades on this thread and on the forum, it seems that there were possibly several schools of thought associated with this hilt.

Cathy, these may be questions bordering on my being simple minded, did the average length of the handle change over time? Did the balance of the blade shift as well? Am I correct in thinking that many of these were cut and thrust weapons? In your research for the article did you find that they became more thrust orientated as the hilt became more intricate? Or did they continue to be manufactured for a diversity of fencing styles?

Interesting, isn't it?
Personal inclination is towards wide broadsword blades with chopping in mind. The length and strength helped when dealing with a typical munition's grade rapier.
I can understand why the Border Reivers coveted them.
I too think they are the most desirable of all swords and I am very keen to acquire one.

Cathey · 3rd April 2023, 03:25 AM

Just as an update, my article is almost finished now over 25 pages long. It appears to me through examination of about 140 examples that they may have been largely for infantry use very early. The Schiavonesca particularly appear to have been lighter and had shorter blades. Also the early suggestion of Infantry or Marine use could be applied to these early examples, pre the caged hilt and the early skeleton hilts.

However, it appears with the advent of the 30-year war that the Schiavona came into its own as a cavalry weapon. Curtaining in the 17th and 18th Centuries blades on average are long and wide, more suited to cavalry than infantry. They also seem to have transitioned from a general use broadsword, through to what I would describe as a riding sword (similar to a rapier but with a much broader and heavier blade) through to the Rapier with a narrower blade and a longer ricasso.

Looking at my late 18th century example, I can not imagine trying to fence with this weapon, but from horseback it would have been most effective.

Cheers Cathey.

urbanspaceman · 5th June 2023, 06:08 PM

Hi Fernando. Do you know why my PM to Cathey was not sent?

Interested Party · 1st April 2023, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Lattice basket Schiavona, Italy around 1700, double-edged, slender blade, blade with patina and with slight traces of corrosion, openwork in the upper part, iron, somewhat loosened, cut basket hilt, with straight cross-guard, wooden grip. about 100cm

Does the first picture show a pommel with a hole to receive a knuckle bow? If so, a composite piece?

31st March 2023, 02:00 PM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 616	Odd example I came across this rather ugly (IMHO) example and felt I should draw it to your attention in case it was of interest. It is currently up for auction. This is the description translated roughly from German: Lattice basket Schiavona, Italy around 1700, double-edged, slender blade, blade with patina and with slight traces of corrosion, openwork in the upper part, iron, somewhat loosened, cut basket hilt, with straight cross-guard, wooden grip. about 100cm Attached Images

31st March 2023, 11:39 PM	#2
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Lionello Boccia article Hi Mark, thanks for your offer, I don't mind how long it takes as I have not been able to track down a copy. Cheers Cathey

1st April 2023, 02:03 AM	#3
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Strange Schiavona for auction Hi urbanspaceman Yes I did see this one, the blade is nice and early Italian I think, but the hilt is very odd to me. Looks like it has been played with. Cheers Cathey

1st April 2023, 02:09 PM	#5
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 497	lenght of handle Keith, the length of the handle appears to be longer than average. The blade seems slender. Which to me gives the impression that this was a stabbing weapon. A long time ago I remember reading that these were primarily thrusting weapons but looking at all the examples of blades on this thread and on the forum, it seems that there were possibly several schools of thought associated with this hilt. Cathy, these may be questions bordering on my being simple minded, did the average length of the handle change over time? Did the balance of the blade shift as well? Am I correct in thinking that many of these were cut and thrust weapons? In your research for the article did you find that they became more thrust orientated as the hilt became more intricate? Or did they continue to be manufactured for a diversity of fencing styles?

3rd April 2023, 03:25 AM	#7
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Schiavona Infantry or cavalry Just as an update, my article is almost finished now over 25 pages long. It appears to me through examination of about 140 examples that they may have been largely for infantry use very early. The Schiavonesca particularly appear to have been lighter and had shorter blades. Also the early suggestion of Infantry or Marine use could be applied to these early examples, pre the caged hilt and the early skeleton hilts. However, it appears with the advent of the 30-year war that the Schiavona came into its own as a cavalry weapon. Curtaining in the 17th and 18th Centuries blades on average are long and wide, more suited to cavalry than infantry. They also seem to have transitioned from a general use broadsword, through to what I would describe as a riding sword (similar to a rapier but with a much broader and heavier blade) through to the Rapier with a narrower blade and a longer ricasso. Looking at my late 18th century example, I can not imagine trying to fence with this weapon, but from horseback it would have been most effective. Cheers Cathey.

5th June 2023, 06:08 PM	#8
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 616	Private Message Hi Fernando. Do you know why my PM to Cathey was not sent?