Johannes Hoppe Rapier and Dagger

SwordLover79 · 16th March 2023, 02:45 PM

Guys: As usual, I truly appreciate the insights and feedback from the group!
The person I acquired the rapier/dagger simply told me that it came from an old collection. I have admired and held many rapiers - this is the heaviest and best balanced one that I have seen. The dagger is also well made, and appears to match the rapier perfectly. I attach some additional photos for you.

A couple of additional questions; 1. why would the dagger be unsigned? 2. would the sword and dagger have had scabbards back in the day? 3. I have attached a photo of a very similar rapier in the Philadelphia Museum of Art by Peter Munsten the Elder - suggesting that it was made in Saxon Germany 1585 - 1600. would my example be of the same period?

fernando · 16th March 2023, 04:36 PM

Looks like Merenti has it right; Saxon provenance. Rather than the dagger having no signature being an issue, if the master smith had in mind to build an inseparable duo, their aspect would be completely equal, not only similar. Down below an example of this type of dagger seen selling out there. Apparently is only plausible for a collector acquiring a sword and a left hand dagger of same typology and format, even in different occasions, and mary the couple. These are hardly Spanish, who used more often the 'sail' type. Most possibly this couple went from Germany to California with no detour by the Spaniards.
Yet everything is possible in this small world. I have a swept hilt rapier made by a famous Toledo Master which, been picked somewhere in the (Southern) States by a guy who brought back to the Peninsula (Portugal for he case), had it in exibition in the handle bars of his motorcicle, in a traditional bike meeting. If i didn't know its history i would swear that it just traveled a few hundred miles from my neighbor country.
And yes, these things had scabbards; however they were highly perishable ... only a few must have survived.

.

Merenti · 16th March 2023, 04:45 PM

The daggers of the Saxon Trabant Guard were never marked. Based on the new pictures, I am of the opinion that the dagger and rapier are historicism pieces, the blade may be original.

here pictures from the Dresden armory

fernando · 16th March 2023, 04:59 PM

Historicism guards with authentic blades; go figure !

Merenti · 16th March 2023, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Looks like Merenti has it right; Saxon provenance. Rather than the dagger having no signature being an issue, if the master smith had in mind to build an inseparable duo, their aspect would be completely equal, not only similar. Down below an example of this type of dagger seen selling out there. Apparently is only plausible for a collector acquiring a sword and a left hand dagger of same typology and format, even in different occasions, and mary the couple. These are hardly Spanish, who used more often the 'sail' type. Most possibly this couple went from Germany to California with no detour by the Spaniards.
Yet everything is possible in this small world. I have a swept hilt rapier made by a famous Toledo Master which, been picked somewhere in the (Southern) States by a guy who brought back to the Peninsula (Portugal for he case), had it in exibition in the handle bars of his motorcicle, in a traditional bike meeting. If i didn't know its history i would swear that it just traveled a few hundred miles from my neighbor country.
And yes, these things had scabbards; however they were highly perishable ... only a few must have survived.

.

https://www.hermann-historica.de/de/.../lot/id/455923

Your shown dagger is a well-known production from the historicism period

fernando · 16th March 2023, 05:39 PM

Oh ... i don't doubt that Merenti, even though the image i posted is from somewhere else; but probably from the same origin. However correct me if i am wrong; didn't you say the SwordLover's guards are historicism but the blades are authentic ? But i see that you were referring only to the dagger blade, right ?

Merenti · 16th March 2023, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Oh ... i don't doubt that Merenti, even though the image i posted is from somewhere else; but probably from the same origin. However correct me if i am wrong; didn't you say the SwordLover's guards are historicism but the blades are authentic ? But i see that you were referring only to the dagger blade, right ?

It is my personal opinion that the dagger of Swordlover blade and guard are historicism. The rapier I consider to be assembled. The guard is historism and the blade could be original. I have often heard that original blades were used. Similarly as the forger Konrad has done

Merenti · 16th March 2023, 05:56 PM

https://antiquearmor.com/item/1293sword/

Saxon Arms have always been popular and well forged. there is a dealer in the USA who buys good fakes in Europe and then sells them as originals. I would never buy anything from this dealer

fernando · 16th March 2023, 06:30 PM

I see !

16th March 2023, 02:45 PM	#1
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	Johannes Hoppe Rapier Guys: As usual, I truly appreciate the insights and feedback from the group! The person I acquired the rapier/dagger simply told me that it came from an old collection. I have admired and held many rapiers - this is the heaviest and best balanced one that I have seen. The dagger is also well made, and appears to match the rapier perfectly. I attach some additional photos for you. A couple of additional questions; 1. why would the dagger be unsigned? 2. would the sword and dagger have had scabbards back in the day? 3. I have attached a photo of a very similar rapier in the Philadelphia Museum of Art by Peter Munsten the Elder - suggesting that it was made in Saxon Germany 1585 - 1600. would my example be of the same period? Attached Images

16th March 2023, 04:36 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Looks like Merenti has it right; Saxon provenance. Rather than the dagger having no signature being an issue, if the master smith had in mind to build an inseparable duo, their aspect would be completely equal, not only similar. Down below an example of this type of dagger seen selling out there. Apparently is only plausible for a collector acquiring a sword and a left hand dagger of same typology and format, even in different occasions, and mary the couple. These are hardly Spanish, who used more often the 'sail' type. Most possibly this couple went from Germany to California with no detour by the Spaniards. Yet everything is possible in this small world. I have a swept hilt rapier made by a famous Toledo Master which, been picked somewhere in the (Southern) States by a guy who brought back to the Peninsula (Portugal for he case), had it in exibition in the handle bars of his motorcicle, in a traditional bike meeting. If i didn't know its history i would swear that it just traveled a few hundred miles from my neighbor country. And yes, these things had scabbards; however they were highly perishable ... only a few must have survived. . Attached Images

16th March 2023, 04:45 PM	#3
Merenti Member Join Date: Aug 2021 Location: Germany Posts: 72	The daggers of the Saxon Trabant Guard were never marked. Based on the new pictures, I am of the opinion that the dagger and rapier are historicism pieces, the blade may be original. here pictures from the Dresden armory Attached Images

16th March 2023, 04:59 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Historicism guards with authentic blades; go figure !

16th March 2023, 05:39 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Oh ... i don't doubt that Merenti, even though the image i posted is from somewhere else; but probably from the same origin. However correct me if i am wrong; didn't you say the SwordLover's guards are historicism but the blades are authentic ? But i see that you were referring only to the dagger blade, right ?

16th March 2023, 05:56 PM	#8
Merenti Member Join Date: Aug 2021 Location: Germany Posts: 72	https://antiquearmor.com/item/1293sword/ Saxon Arms have always been popular and well forged. there is a dealer in the USA who buys good fakes in Europe and then sells them as originals. I would never buy anything from this dealer

16th March 2023, 06:30 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I see !