Keris malela in Bujangga Manik

jagabuwana · 5th March 2023, 01:36 AM

Thank you, Alan.
Were the gonjos mated to a keris and then removed for examination? If so, do you recall the quality or classification of the kerises?

A. G. Maisey · 5th March 2023, 06:40 AM

In most cases the gonjos were not mated to keris, & the quality of everything given to Prof. Piaskowski was total junk, stuff that was thrown away by a couple of dealers and that I scaved from their rubbish bins.

Jerzy used destructive methods involving dissection and acids, he was more than happy with what I provided to him, he did not expect items in any sort of passable condition.

I gave him a lot of items, & everything given was very old, nothing would have been produced after 1850, the blades & parts of blades were in most cases not able to be classified, the gonjos in some cases were able to be classified.

rasdan · 5th March 2023, 02:06 PM

Hi Jaga,

Here's an example of a wootz keris. It is probably a 17th century Palembang keris. This keris was polished and lightly etched showing the wootz pattern. About 50% of the blade was once adorned with kinatah. Unfortunately this one is no longer mine.

I have another keris that is probably wootz. But this keris was a bit eroded with traditional cleaning it is rather rough and we cant see of it is really wootz. This one is probably Javanese. I don't have any photo of this keris at the moment.

I find that there are a number of examples of other weapons usually from Sumatra that was made from wootz.

jagabuwana · 6th March 2023, 01:16 AM

Alan - thank you for the extra info. This has challenged my initial assumptions -(1) that wootz keris were of better quality; and (2) that is due to wootz being a more expensive imported product than local steel.

Rasdan - thank you for the reference image. Of the two wootz keris you refer, would you say they are of better-than-average quality and manufacture?

rasdan · 6th March 2023, 03:07 AM

Hi Jaga,

It is rather difficult to say on quality as we need to match the quality level to the respective age and origin or tangguh of a keris.

Plus there is a problem on how a certain dhapur for certain keris origin/tangguh should ideally look like. Only people who have access to well preserved, high quality keris with known provenance will know this and there are a lot of pretenders out there.

Then there are varying qualities of wootz. I am sure the cost is going to be different. I think we cannot use wootz as an indicator of quality for keris.

Regarding the two keris I mentioned, in general, I think, I can say that both keris when they were new are of good quality. The Palembang is probably, probably the near top quality in Sumatera at the time it was made, but the Jawa one is probably just slightly above average, not top quality. It could be lower, but I have insufficient knowledge to say; I don't even know if it is really wootz because of the surface erosion.

A. G. Maisey · 6th March 2023, 04:27 AM

No way to judge quality when new of the items I used to send to Jerzy, as I said, it was all junk: old, eroded, formless.

But the thing to note is this:- there was no local material, I used to believe that there was local iron that had been smelted from beach sands in South Jawa & Bali, and possibly other places, my belief was generated by inaccurate information that was floating around 20 or 30 or more years back, probably misguided local pride.

We now know that there is no evidence of locally smelted iron anywhere in Jawa/ Bali.

All the ferric material came in from somewhere else, mostly China, as both raw (ingots) of iron and as tools. There is more than enough evidence of this. But even so, it is reasonable to assume that all material imported was not of equal quality, thus the variations in pamor sanak.

Jean · 6th March 2023, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

We now know that there is no evidence of locally smelted iron anywhere in Jawa/ Bali, & probably no credible evidence for anywhere else in the Archipelago either.

Hello Alan,
What about pamor Luwu in Sulawesi?
Regards

5th March 2023, 02:06 PM	#3
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Hi Jaga, Here's an example of a wootz keris. It is probably a 17th century Palembang keris. This keris was polished and lightly etched showing the wootz pattern. About 50% of the blade was once adorned with kinatah. Unfortunately this one is no longer mine. I have another keris that is probably wootz. But this keris was a bit eroded with traditional cleaning it is rather rough and we cant see of it is really wootz. This one is probably Javanese. I don't have any photo of this keris at the moment. I find that there are a number of examples of other weapons usually from Sumatra that was made from wootz. Attached Images

6th March 2023, 04:27 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	No way to judge quality when new of the items I used to send to Jerzy, as I said, it was all junk: old, eroded, formless. But the thing to note is this:- there was no local material, I used to believe that there was local iron that had been smelted from beach sands in South Jawa & Bali, and possibly other places, my belief was generated by inaccurate information that was floating around 20 or 30 or more years back, probably misguided local pride. We now know that there is no evidence of locally smelted iron anywhere in Jawa/ Bali. All the ferric material came in from somewhere else, mostly China, as both raw (ingots) of iron and as tools. There is more than enough evidence of this. But even so, it is reasonable to assume that all material imported was not of equal quality, thus the variations in pamor sanak. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 6th March 2023 at 11:41 AM.

5th March 2023, 01:36 AM	#1
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	Thank you, Alan. Were the gonjos mated to a keris and then removed for examination? If so, do you recall the quality or classification of the kerises?

5th March 2023, 06:40 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	In most cases the gonjos were not mated to keris, & the quality of everything given to Prof. Piaskowski was total junk, stuff that was thrown away by a couple of dealers and that I scaved from their rubbish bins. Jerzy used destructive methods involving dissection and acids, he was more than happy with what I provided to him, he did not expect items in any sort of passable condition. I gave him a lot of items, & everything given was very old, nothing would have been produced after 1850, the blades & parts of blades were in most cases not able to be classified, the gonjos in some cases were able to be classified.

6th March 2023, 01:16 AM	#4
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	Alan - thank you for the extra info. This has challenged my initial assumptions -(1) that wootz keris were of better quality; and (2) that is due to wootz being a more expensive imported product than local steel. Rasdan - thank you for the reference image. Of the two wootz keris you refer, would you say they are of better-than-average quality and manufacture?

6th March 2023, 03:07 AM	#5
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Hi Jaga, It is rather difficult to say on quality as we need to match the quality level to the respective age and origin or tangguh of a keris. Plus there is a problem on how a certain dhapur for certain keris origin/tangguh should ideally look like. Only people who have access to well preserved, high quality keris with known provenance will know this and there are a lot of pretenders out there. Then there are varying qualities of wootz. I am sure the cost is going to be different. I think we cannot use wootz as an indicator of quality for keris. Regarding the two keris I mentioned, in general, I think, I can say that both keris when they were new are of good quality. The Palembang is probably, probably the near top quality in Sumatera at the time it was made, but the Jawa one is probably just slightly above average, not top quality. It could be lower, but I have insufficient knowledge to say; I don't even know if it is really wootz because of the surface erosion.