Kopis/Κοπίς & Makhaira/Μάχαιρα (Greek & Etruscan)

[werecow]

Interesting, I did not realize that so many of these had T-section blades.

[Teisani]

Originally Posted by werecow

Interesting, I did not realize that so many of these had T-section blades.

Most, if not all, Corsican/Italic peninsula machaira have T-spines (or rather pipe-backs). Balkan kopis seem to have mid-ribs, if longer blades. Unclear what cross-section the shorter ones have, my guess, triangular (probably some fullering). Although there are some long-ish kopis (like the Kerch kopis) whoose cross-sections are debatable. The falcata is a different story, it seems use a combination of fullering and spine thickening (almost a T-spine, but less pronounced) more often.

Speaking of blade length, the Dodona is ~71cm, the Prodromi is about ~77cm, the Etruscan ones are in the 70-80cm range (some probably longer, ~85cm). So not really "short swords".

Another aspect is the false-edge on some kopis examples (presence confirmed in Parnell's article) and complete absence on the Etruscan machairas (due to pipe-back). Now, almost all falcatas seem to have false edges. The only falcatas that I know of that don't, are the Almedinilla falcata (upper) and this other one). The Almedinilla even has some sort of T-spine (you can see the thick spine here https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F..._M.A.N._02.jpg). Quite an atypical example. Of course there shoud be others without false-edges that I am not aware of.
One more thing is that some might look like the have false edges, but in reality might be just beveling of the spine without an actual edge.

[Teisani]

Size comparissons. I think/hope they're to scale.
Source: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...8&postcount=18

[Teisani]

More Picene machaira from the "Museo Archeologico Nazionale delle Marche" in Ancona.
https://legvmac.ru/news/vk_18817/

[kai]

Thanks, great effort!

[Teisani]

Originally Posted by kai

Thanks, great effort!

Glad you liked it!

[M ELEY]

Not in my ballpark, but incredibly detailed information on these fascinating swords! Future generations of collectors will appreciate your great effort and knowledge on these!

[Teisani]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

...Future generations of collectors will appreciate your great effort and knowledge on these!

Thank you! Thank you!...and to future generations, I prefer my statues in imaculate white marble (bronze is for peasants, yuck!). Oh! and placed in a sunny spot, with no pidgeons around.

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On a more serious note, one reason I started this compilation of available online information on these swords, is because people lump Iberian falcatas with Greek/Italic kopis together. More often falcatas get labeled as kopis, rather than the reverse, because extant kopis are much more rare, and usually not as well preserved (and the ancient Greeks have much better PR than Iberian celts, so more people). But I want to emphasize that kopis and falcatas are very distinct in shape, and possibly in function too.

P.S.: I regret not being able to provide the sources to all of the pictures/info posted. Some of them I have for a while, and just forgot where I acquired them.

[hrvsomerville]

Here is another interesting example that was exhibited a few years ago in Bulgaria, described as a Thracian weapon, despite it sharing some key characteristics with the Macedonian examples. I suppose that doesn't mean much considering the example found in King Suethes III's tomb also shared these characteristics, which is curious. This example is notable as it's the shortest and broadest I've ever seen.

[Teisani]

Originally Posted by hrvsomerville

Here is another interesting example that was exhibited a few years ago in Bulgaria...

Good find. Yes, it's probably from the Dobrich regional history museum (Регионален исторически музей Добрич) in N-E Bulgaria. It is indeed an odd example, being closer to a knife than a sword. But if you make it longer it looks very similar to the Prodromi find.

Source:
https://pronewsdobrich.bg/ekspozitsi...oogle_vignette
https://rousse.info/тракийско-въоръж...#1083;о/

[hrvsomerville]

Here is another example of the Macedonian type, though it is missing the blade. You can see a hole for the eye on the bird's head, which supposedly would hold a ruby.

[Teisani]

Originally Posted by hrvsomerville

Here is another example of the Macedonian type, though it is missing the blade. You can see a hole for the eye on the bird's head, which supposedly would hold a ruby.

Even though the blade is missing, the hilt is so nice, with the guard having that typical shape. Amazing how consistent these swords are in having that little bump detail on the guard, that mid-swelling in the handle. The contraction for the lower two fingers, which falcatas also poses, yet Italic/Etruscan examples seem to lack.

Originally Posted by hrvsomerville

Here is another example though I'm not sure how to classify it. Based on its curve (or lack there of), and shape of the handle, I'm inclined to say it's Greek, similar to the Macedonian types. However, the handle is clearly a horse head rather than the typical bird head, the handle isn't solid iron (looks like center would have been organic), the guard is missing the characteristic bump before the point (though your 7th example seems to be missing that as well), and the blade is rather short. I'm curious what you think.

How would you characterize a Macedonia type vs. a Greek type? What are their distinguishing features?

Although on this one the blade is almost straight, the handle is much more canted/curved. So the effect should probably the same. I'm guessing the blade tip is missing. Otherwise, I'm getting "parang' vibes coming from it

Originally Posted by hrvsomerville

I will say I have seen an example of a long (96cm, even longer than the Macedonian-type kopis), straight blade with a very similar horse-head, non-solid handle that was described as a Greek makhaira from the 6th -5th c. BCE — but since it lacks a curve it's likely not a "kopis", so I won't post a picture here. But given that context, it makes me think that this example might be Greek and precede the Macedonian examples from the 4th c. BCE.

I think you should post it. The larger the sample size, the better. This one from the Musée d'Art Classique de Mougins in France had me scratching my head, so I hesitated to post it. Its proportions seem strange. Any thoughts?

Source: http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.39375.html

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I managed to find a better view. A photo by Michel Allal on Google.

[hrvsomerville]

Here is another example though I'm not sure how to classify it. Based on its curve (or lack there of), and shape of the handle, I'm inclined to say it's Greek, similar to the Macedonian types. However, the handle is clearly a horse head rather than the typical bird head, the handle isn't solid iron (looks like center would have been organic), the guard is missing the characteristic bump before the point (though your 7th example seems to be missing that as well), and the blade is rather short. I'm curious what you think.

I will say I have seen an example of a long (96cm, even longer than the Macedonian-type kopis), straight blade with a very similar horse-head, non-solid handle that was described as a Greek makhaira from the 6th -5th c. BCE — but since it lacks a curve it's likely not a "kopis", so I won't post a picture here. But given that context, it makes me think that this example might be Greek and precede the Macedonian examples from the 4th c. BCE.

[Teisani]

Excellent finds! Thank you!

Originally Posted by hrvsomerville

Very happy to see someone as interested in these as I am. It's also interesting that Parnell claims that the kopis is rarely portrayed in sculpture as these examples (of at least the hilts) were found in Dodona, where the first example she cites was found. Maybe she thinks that because they could appear to look like straight swords when sheathed? An example of that can be seen in the painting of one from the tomb of Lyson and Kallikles, interestingly seen with equipment similar to that found with the Kopis from Prodromi.

Would you consider a kopis blade on a xiphos hilt still a kopis? What about a xiphos blade on a kopis hilt? To be fair some kopis examples have almost straight blades, the Prodromi example and this one, with a bit more work, look almost like xiphos blades.
I would argue that the only remaining distinguishing feature of a kopis, as opposed to a xiphos, might not be the forward curvature of the blade, but the asymmetric hilt. Actually, not the entire hilt even, sometimes just the hook shape at the end. Here are two examples with symmetric guards, but hooked ends.




Actually you can find a nice contrast between the two types in the Tomb of Lyson and Kallikles example you posted.

Source:
https://x-legio.com/en/wiki/kopis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A...de04a5a180.jpg
https://hetairoi.de/en/kopis-prodromi