Inlaid Kris and Punang

kai · 24th June 2006, 02:44 PM

Hello Wayan,

Welcome to the forum!

Please be careful since keris/kris threads are somewhat notorious to get a little quarrelsome once in a while...

On this forum we follow the convention of distinguishing between the "kris" (aka keris sundang) from the southern Philippines (but also found across Borneo, Sumatra and the Malay Peninsula) and the "keris" (i.e. the more traditional styles mainly found in Malaya, Sumatra, Jawa and Bali/Lombok (also Borneo, southern Thailand, etc.).

Quote:

I would like to see a kris from the Philippines without its hilt, in order to judge the size of the tang in relation to the blade.

The kris is a really different animal which also affects the usual tang construction - here's a thread with pics: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1243

Quote:

In Indonesia, and particularly in Bali, the kris is regarded as pusaka, a revered work of the gifted Empu who wrought it...

... For a man in Indonesia, his kris is his soul, and a direct extension of his body.

I can assure you that it's exactly the same cultural tradition in the southern Philippines!

Quote:

I can assure any reader of this forum that no serious Indonesian collector of kris would even pass a thought of including a kris such as this Philippine kris in their collection.

Well, keris sundang are not exactly unknown in Indonesia/Malaysia...

I'd also stipulate that aesthetics are bound to differ from one ethnic/cultural group to another so we need to be careful with our own preferences. Among the different keris styles I also see quite large differences (i.e. Malay/Sumatran/Bugis keris vs. Jawa vs. Bali/Lombok, keris panjang and many other keris styles which may appear odd to outsiders!).

Spunjer · 24th June 2006, 03:11 PM

oh boy! this looks like it's gonna be a long thread...

Quote:

I can assure any reader of this forum that no serious Indonesian collector of kris would even pass a thought of including a kris such as this Philippine kris in their collection.

nechesh et al, unless you guys are a serious keris collector, you must give up all your moro krises, lol.

nechesh · 24th June 2006, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

nechesh et al, unless you guys are a serious keris collector, you must give up all your moro krises, lol.

To paraphrase Charton Heston,"You'll have to pry them out of my cold dead hands!!!"

Rick · 24th June 2006, 03:56 PM

This is posted so many times here that I'm going to save bandwidth and hot link it . Moro Kris :

Oh and Spunjer , no way Man .

Wayan · 24th June 2006, 04:48 PM

In response to Kai:

Why am I being told to “be careful” when discussing the kris of my homeland? And why is this said by someone who lives in Germany? Of course any discussion of kris can be charged. You should hear me argue with my Islamic brothers from Java! They actually think the kris was “invented” within Islam. They also think the same of batik, wayan kulit, topeng, and gamelon, just to mention a few. Silly boys...but when they come to Bali, they are quiet.

Many thanks for the link to see one of these Philippine kris in the buff, so to speak. The tang on them appears to be rectangular, as opposed to circular. But, the tang, in relation to the blade, in width and length makes it impossible for me to envision this blade as an effective slashing weapon. The tang, on the example you linked seems to me to be way too small in relation to a wide, and clumsy blade to defy simple laws of physics. Unless the tang on that blade was forged again into an iron, or bronze hilt, I think simple physics....the stress on the tang, would render it rather useless as a slashing weapon.

On this forum, you can follow whatever convention you desire in the discussion of kris. I have no problem with that. When I post about kris, I will make it very clear if my post is about a Balinese kris, a Javanese kris, a Bugis kris from Sulawesi...whatever.

Regarding aesthetics, they are indeed personal, and I agree they vary greatly from one to another. If a participant on this forum is not allowed to offer their aesthetics, which are obviously open to discussion, and rejection by other forum members, then count me out of here, right now. My personal style is not to walk on egg shells, nor will I bow to
anyone except my priests and my elders. I’m not looking for a fight, but I have not written anything here that deserves a caution.

It’s also odd that you did not comment on either of the average Balinese kris I linked in my last post. I offered those photos only as an aesthetic comparison to the Philippine kris which I find to be clumsy, without grace, and without elegance. But hey! That’s only my opinion!

Flavio · 24th June 2006, 04:57 PM

Hey Rick, this is a VERY BEAUTY!!!!!!! WOOOW

Wayan · 24th June 2006, 04:58 PM

In reply to “Nechesh”

You write: “I don't think you will get very far on this forum disrespecting or diminishing other peoples (sic) cultures.”

Where the hell did I do that? My comments ONLY addressed the blade, as originally posted and that is it!

Who the hell are you to accuse me of “disrespecting or diminishing other peoples (sic) cultures.” I never do that, never have, and surely I don’t like being falsely accused of doing so. An apology is warranted, AND expected!

Rick · 24th June 2006, 05:10 PM

Wayan , please read the posting rules found at the top of the discussion list .
We always aim to be polite and non confrontational here ; this is absolutely *not* a 'no holds barred' forum and decorum and politeness must be maintained .

A cautionary word does not an insult make .

By the way I like very much this piece that you show :
http://www.sundream.com/~majapahit/images/Kris31.jpg
What god or raksassa does the ukiran represent ?
Do they make blawong to fit Bali kerisses ; I ask because the one you show dwarfs the Jawa blawong it is in .

Rick

Wayan · 24th June 2006, 05:18 PM

And, as a follow up to “Nechesh” who wrote the following:

“The hilt on the second one is exquisite though. Looks like recent work to me.
BTW, you will also find figurative hilts from Java, Madura and Sumatra and the so-called "kingfisher" hilts from the peninsula areas.”

The hilt is not recent work, in fact that kris, hilt, sarong and all, has been in the family of a Balinese high priest for several generations. When you make generic comments like, “looks like recent work to me” is it not too much to ask that you provide specific reasons for your declaration? If you have some particular expertise, then isn’t it fair to document your comments?

By figurative hilts, I refer to hilts that are clearly of human personage which is forbidden in Islam. Good luck finding a hilt from Java, Madura, or Sumatra carved as Bayu, Anak Raja, Wishnu....or just a simple half naked lady!

nechesh · 24th June 2006, 05:36 PM

Sorry Wayan, but you'll get no apology from me. Perhaps disrespectful was too harsh a word, but your whole attitude in this matter is completely dismissive. This thread is about two MORO weapons, a kris and a gunong, yet you find it necessarry to post here about how superior the Balinese keris is to Moro Weapons. Well, firstly, it's apples and oranges. You can't really compare the two. But it is not the subject line of this thread anyway.
You actually DO show disrespect for a few of us "serious" collectors of Indonesian keris who DO include Moro kris in our collections. I can assure you i am a very serious collector and student. As i stated, my preference is firmly in the Indo camp, which is why i only have 3 Moro kris and about 3 dozen Indo keris. But please don't insult me by implying that i am not a "serious" collector because of this.
You seem to know as little about physics as you do about Moro kris. You should probably skip the science and just look at the history. A Moro warrior armed with a kris was once considered the most fiercesome opponent of the U.S. Marine Corp. and there are many reports of soldiers nearly cleaved in two by a wound from a kris. So physics be damned i guess.

Bottom line is that you are hi-jacking this thread and turning it into a debate about the superiority the Bali keris. This thread should be about the weapons presented. If you use the search function you will no doubt find many threads on Indo keris and specifically Bali keris and i also encourage you to start new threads on these subjects. I will gladly join inn the discussion there and look forward to the occasion. I am sure that you have a lot to offer this forum.

MABAGANI · 24th June 2006, 05:18 PM

peoples of keris/kris cultures share common heritages in their weaopnry as well as in music, dress, language, religion, etc...so i will refrain from degrading opinions, we're like distant cousins so to speak
the keris and kris evolved differently around the Mindanao and Sulu Sultanates because their warriors continued fighting foreign invasion over three centuries
being open about keris and kris is like a family gathering...bring on the food fight. lolz

nechesh · 24th June 2006, 03:38 PM

Hi Wayan,
I would second Kai's cautious words here. It seems you don't really know enough about Moro kris to be passing such judgements. Pehaps you should spent some time with the search function of this forum and check out the level of skill and artistry that can be found in the Moro kris before making any further comments. My own personal tastes run more towards the Indonesian keris myself and i have a very strong affection for Bali blades in particular. But i also have 3 Moro blades in my collection which i quite enjoy and the quality of their workmanship is hardly inferior. Moro blades do tend to be far more functional and were used as actual weapons of war, unlike most Indo keris. But their owners also saw them as having a powerful mystical/magickal side. This is warrior magick. I wouldn't assign a better or worse title to it. I don't think you will get very far on this forum disrespecting or diminishing other peoples cultures. The Moro (and people who collect their weapons) take their kris very seriously. It is a powerful weapon both practically and spiritually, though perhaps not in the same complex and variant modes as the Indo keris. They don't use complex pamor patterns, but there is a beauty to the pure functional form of them. AS to your question about the tang, the Moro kris tang is rectangular, unlike the round Indo ones. The blade is also additionally secured by one or two stirrups called baca-baca. I can assure you there is NOTHING fragile about this construction and the tang is not likely to bend under the fiercest of combat situations.
Very nice keris that you linked to. Neither, however, is "flawless in their execution". The hilt on the second one is exquisite though. Looks like recent work to me.
BTW, you will also find figurative hilts from Java, Madura and Sumatra and the so-called "kingfisher" hilts from the penisula areas.

24th June 2006, 03:56 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Wayan et al This is posted so many times here that I'm going to save bandwidth and hot link it . Moro Kris : Oh and Spunjer , no way Man .

24th June 2006, 05:10 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Wayan , A Gentle Word Wayan , please read the posting rules found at the top of the discussion list . We always aim to be polite and non confrontational here ; this is absolutely not a 'no holds barred' forum and decorum and politeness must be maintained . A cautionary word does not an insult make . By the way I like very much this piece that you show : http://www.sundream.com/~majapahit/images/Kris31.jpg What god or raksassa does the ukiran represent ? Do they make blawong to fit Bali kerisses ; I ask because the one you show dwarfs the Jawa blawong it is in . Rick

24th June 2006, 04:48 PM	#5
Wayan Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia Posts: 16	In response to Kai: Why am I being told to “be careful” when discussing the kris of my homeland? And why is this said by someone who lives in Germany? Of course any discussion of kris can be charged. You should hear me argue with my Islamic brothers from Java! They actually think the kris was “invented” within Islam. They also think the same of batik, wayan kulit, topeng, and gamelon, just to mention a few. Silly boys...but when they come to Bali, they are quiet. Many thanks for the link to see one of these Philippine kris in the buff, so to speak. The tang on them appears to be rectangular, as opposed to circular. But, the tang, in relation to the blade, in width and length makes it impossible for me to envision this blade as an effective slashing weapon. The tang, on the example you linked seems to me to be way too small in relation to a wide, and clumsy blade to defy simple laws of physics. Unless the tang on that blade was forged again into an iron, or bronze hilt, I think simple physics....the stress on the tang, would render it rather useless as a slashing weapon. On this forum, you can follow whatever convention you desire in the discussion of kris. I have no problem with that. When I post about kris, I will make it very clear if my post is about a Balinese kris, a Javanese kris, a Bugis kris from Sulawesi...whatever. Regarding aesthetics, they are indeed personal, and I agree they vary greatly from one to another. If a participant on this forum is not allowed to offer their aesthetics, which are obviously open to discussion, and rejection by other forum members, then count me out of here, right now. My personal style is not to walk on egg shells, nor will I bow to anyone except my priests and my elders. I’m not looking for a fight, but I have not written anything here that deserves a caution. It’s also odd that you did not comment on either of the average Balinese kris I linked in my last post. I offered those photos only as an aesthetic comparison to the Philippine kris which I find to be clumsy, without grace, and without elegance. But hey! That’s only my opinion!

24th June 2006, 04:57 PM	#6
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hey Rick, this is a VERY BEAUTY!!!!!!! WOOOW

24th June 2006, 04:58 PM	#7
Wayan Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia Posts: 16	In reply to “Nechesh” You write: “I don't think you will get very far on this forum disrespecting or diminishing other peoples (sic) cultures.” Where the hell did I do that? My comments ONLY addressed the blade, as originally posted and that is it! Who the hell are you to accuse me of “disrespecting or diminishing other peoples (sic) cultures.” I never do that, never have, and surely I don’t like being falsely accused of doing so. An apology is warranted, AND expected!

24th June 2006, 05:18 PM	#9
Wayan Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia Posts: 16	And, as a follow up to “Nechesh” who wrote the following: “The hilt on the second one is exquisite though. Looks like recent work to me. BTW, you will also find figurative hilts from Java, Madura and Sumatra and the so-called "kingfisher" hilts from the peninsula areas.” The hilt is not recent work, in fact that kris, hilt, sarong and all, has been in the family of a Balinese high priest for several generations. When you make generic comments like, “looks like recent work to me” is it not too much to ask that you provide specific reasons for your declaration? If you have some particular expertise, then isn’t it fair to document your comments? By figurative hilts, I refer to hilts that are clearly of human personage which is forbidden in Islam. Good luck finding a hilt from Java, Madura, or Sumatra carved as Bayu, Anak Raja, Wishnu....or just a simple half naked lady!

24th June 2006, 05:36 PM	#10
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Sorry Wayan, but you'll get no apology from me. Perhaps disrespectful was too harsh a word, but your whole attitude in this matter is completely dismissive. This thread is about two MORO weapons, a kris and a gunong, yet you find it necessarry to post here about how superior the Balinese keris is to Moro Weapons. Well, firstly, it's apples and oranges. You can't really compare the two. But it is not the subject line of this thread anyway. You actually DO show disrespect for a few of us "serious" collectors of Indonesian keris who DO include Moro kris in our collections. I can assure you i am a very serious collector and student. As i stated, my preference is firmly in the Indo camp, which is why i only have 3 Moro kris and about 3 dozen Indo keris. But please don't insult me by implying that i am not a "serious" collector because of this. You seem to know as little about physics as you do about Moro kris. You should probably skip the science and just look at the history. A Moro warrior armed with a kris was once considered the most fiercesome opponent of the U.S. Marine Corp. and there are many reports of soldiers nearly cleaved in two by a wound from a kris. So physics be damned i guess. Bottom line is that you are hi-jacking this thread and turning it into a debate about the superiority the Bali keris. This thread should be about the weapons presented. If you use the search function you will no doubt find many threads on Indo keris and specifically Bali keris and i also encourage you to start new threads on these subjects. I will gladly join inn the discussion there and look forward to the occasion. I am sure that you have a lot to offer this forum.

24th June 2006, 05:18 PM	#11
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	peoples of keris/kris cultures share common heritages in their weaopnry as well as in music, dress, language, religion, etc...so i will refrain from degrading opinions, we're like distant cousins so to speak the keris and kris evolved differently around the Mindanao and Sulu Sultanates because their warriors continued fighting foreign invasion over three centuries being open about keris and kris is like a family gathering...bring on the food fight. lolz

24th June 2006, 03:38 PM	#12
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Wayan, I would second Kai's cautious words here. It seems you don't really know enough about Moro kris to be passing such judgements. Pehaps you should spent some time with the search function of this forum and check out the level of skill and artistry that can be found in the Moro kris before making any further comments. My own personal tastes run more towards the Indonesian keris myself and i have a very strong affection for Bali blades in particular. But i also have 3 Moro blades in my collection which i quite enjoy and the quality of their workmanship is hardly inferior. Moro blades do tend to be far more functional and were used as actual weapons of war, unlike most Indo keris. But their owners also saw them as having a powerful mystical/magickal side. This is warrior magick. I wouldn't assign a better or worse title to it. I don't think you will get very far on this forum disrespecting or diminishing other peoples cultures. The Moro (and people who collect their weapons) take their kris very seriously. It is a powerful weapon both practically and spiritually, though perhaps not in the same complex and variant modes as the Indo keris. They don't use complex pamor patterns, but there is a beauty to the pure functional form of them. AS to your question about the tang, the Moro kris tang is rectangular, unlike the round Indo ones. The blade is also additionally secured by one or two stirrups called baca-baca. I can assure you there is NOTHING fragile about this construction and the tang is not likely to bend under the fiercest of combat situations. Very nice keris that you linked to. Neither, however, is "flawless in their execution". The hilt on the second one is exquisite though. Looks like recent work to me. BTW, you will also find figurative hilts from Java, Madura and Sumatra and the so-called "kingfisher" hilts from the penisula areas.