Shaolin Tai Chi Jian not Wudang, Wu Jian & Wen Jian, Taoist, Antique, Battle ready

JoeCanada42 · 28th February 2023, 01:31 AM

few more...

kai · 1st March 2023, 02:02 AM

Hello Joe,

I honestly appreciate your enthusiasm - please keep it!

Quote:

some notes
Shaolin being the external art and Wudang internal
by 1980 only a handfull of shaolin monks remained
at one point shaolin monks were fighting pirates
Taoism banned in 1949

Having said that, I feel you need to validate your sources more critically: Not all information (online, printed, whatever) is of equal value. Separating the wheat (or rice) from the chaff is crucial for any real progress.

For example, one might ask oneself, when the first record of a Shaolin monastery with special fighting ability of its monks got mentioned in official gazetteers or any other imperial documents. A quote from any accepted translations will do for a start...

Or when any Taiji jian (or Taijiquan in general) practise entered the Shaolin curriculum? Or the curriculum of the Wudang crowd? Or, for that matter, which jian practise entered Taijiquan where and when?

Have fun slaying ghosts!

Actually, none of this bears much on the actual use of the jian since its early versions predate any of the extant martial arts (most codified fairly late) and jian having been in use all over China (and beyond) in many fighting styles. Certainly no need to focus on taijiquan despite its popularity (some of it well deserved, some of it not deserved).

Back to the current piece: I can't read the metal of the blade from the pics - some cleaning and light etching might allow additional insights. Please also add the weight of both pieces (without scabbard).

I believe though that you need to follow-up on the advice given by the most experienced members like Philip in your earlier thread here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26884 (IMNSHO worth re-reading till the very end).

Regards,
Kai

JoeCanada42 · 1st March 2023, 04:54 AM

Hi Kai thanks for some input.
I did just re-read the post for the red dragon, seems the fittings and the ray skin plus+ the lacquer were giving doubts. (i think the shaolin is much better dressed)
I like Jim's post about it being a gift like tribute, I need to research more of that.
also I like the ideas of it being possibly older and yet hard to distinguish...

The main take aways I get from rereading it are Kungfu, Buddhist, Taoist, Ming.
my shaolin idea I don't know where that came from but it seemed to fit, (actually when researching shaolin swords, I also saw similar modern productions of this very similar style sword called shaolin, this made me feel more confident in making the link.)

"A quote from any accepted translations will do for a start..." I couldn't possibly provide that...

"cleaning and light etching might allow additional insights" I have never etched a blade and don't really want to start with this one.

I have imagination, not astute studious scholarly abilities such as yourself and others. I can share ideas and photos...weights etc... I come here to allow more capable, willing and interested people also to learn from it. and and as a shortcut to some info, I hope they would share.

I think my research may always seem lacking, I will never produce any threads that are exposition like as many of you do.

I am quite satisfied already with the sword and my limited knowledge of the many possible histories. the sword looks like chilled steel and has the leaping dragon, I read about how they could possibly throw these swords, this one does feel like it could cut through 10 other swords . very fluid movement despite its size, good balance point, no vibration..

sometimes I am worried people are afraid to give they're positive opinions as they don't want to help confirm a bonafide example and educate other potential buyers. I understand for swords of good old example such as ibans , they can make some members bid a little crazy or even some fall for fake handles.

experts can be wrong, there was the recent post about the museum with a replica that turned out to be the real deal.
I really hope Philip will come take a look at these new examples I am sharing

I own two and have seen 3 total with the exact same dragon carving.
someone , somewhere, sometime, may be able to identify this dragon mark and it may solve a big part of this mystery.

Sajen · 1st March 2023, 03:48 PM

I am afraid Joe, I am not well informed by jians but have handled a few, to my eyes all look like reproductions from the mid. 20th century. Sorry, but this is what I think.

Regards,
Detlef

JoeCanada42 · 1st March 2023, 08:00 PM

During the Middle Ages, most swords were relatively light. By the 15th century, larger and heavier swords had been developed, including the 'Bastard' or 'Hand-and-a-half' sword. They were hybrid swords that enabled blows to be delivered with the power of a two-handed sword but could also be wielded with one hand.

https://collections.royalarmouries.o...h%20one%20hand.

The versatility of the design prevented the sword from being specifically categorized as either a one-handed or two-handed weapon. The word bastard was therefore to this sword meaning something irregular or inferior or of dubious origin, having a misleading appearance

https://english.stackexchange.com/qu...g%20appearance.

funny that bastard is used as a curse word meaning different father, actually more accurately, born without marriage?

JoeCanada42 · 1st March 2023, 08:05 PM

maybe my definition of bastard isn't right... here's synonyms, illegitimate, misbegotten, baseborn, spurious, supposititious, motherless, fatherless, nameless;

JoeCanada42 · 1st March 2023, 08:23 PM

late 19c-to early 20c as you called it would be Qing ,
seems the market acceptance, perception and value of these swords has gone up quite a bit recently.
I just looked at all the ones sold on mandarin mansion, I like mine more , I wouldn't trade it for any I seen. I also saw the work done on polishing some of these, where the brass was old like mine with rot? and the rayskin had heavy varnish? removed.
I also seen great river taoist center swords on youtube and got to say mine looks very well made compared to his explanations and comparisons

I see one with the same orange ray skin and same fittings as an example I provided ,similar blade but no dragon I could see, it is for sale now, called Ming, listed for thousands...

Iain · 1st March 2023, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

I am afraid Joe, I am not well informed by jians but have handled a few, to my eyes all look like reproductions from the mid. 20th century. Sorry, but this is what I think.

Regards,
Detlef

Agreed except they can be much later than mid 20th. Unfortunately the market for these appeared generally from the late 90s and continued until the mid 2010s in force and many swords like these appeared at that time

Just to address one comment about identifying replicas and why perhaps some do not comment. Pointing out publicly how a replica is recognized is a good way to allow those making replicas to correct the flaws in their work. I can safely say the lack of comments has nothing to do with any attempt to keep prices low for these swords.

As always with antique collecting, books are often worth more than cheaper pieces of suspect provenance.

28th February 2023, 01:31 AM	#1
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	few more... Attached Images

1st March 2023, 03:48 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,212	I am afraid Joe, I am not well informed by jians but have handled a few, to my eyes all look like reproductions from the mid. 20th century. Sorry, but this is what I think. Regards, Detlef Last edited by Sajen; 1st March 2023 at 07:59 PM.

1st March 2023, 08:00 PM	#5
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	During the Middle Ages, most swords were relatively light. By the 15th century, larger and heavier swords had been developed, including the 'Bastard' or 'Hand-and-a-half' sword. They were hybrid swords that enabled blows to be delivered with the power of a two-handed sword but could also be wielded with one hand. https://collections.royalarmouries.o...h%20one%20hand. The versatility of the design prevented the sword from being specifically categorized as either a one-handed or two-handed weapon. The word bastard was therefore to this sword meaning something irregular or inferior or of dubious origin, having a misleading appearance https://english.stackexchange.com/qu...g%20appearance. funny that bastard is used as a curse word meaning different father, actually more accurately, born without marriage? Attached Images

1st March 2023, 04:54 AM	#3
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	Hi Kai thanks for some input. I did just re-read the post for the red dragon, seems the fittings and the ray skin plus+ the lacquer were giving doubts. (i think the shaolin is much better dressed) I like Jim's post about it being a gift like tribute, I need to research more of that. also I like the ideas of it being possibly older and yet hard to distinguish... The main take aways I get from rereading it are Kungfu, Buddhist, Taoist, Ming. my shaolin idea I don't know where that came from but it seemed to fit, (actually when researching shaolin swords, I also saw similar modern productions of this very similar style sword called shaolin, this made me feel more confident in making the link.) "A quote from any accepted translations will do for a start..." I couldn't possibly provide that... "cleaning and light etching might allow additional insights" I have never etched a blade and don't really want to start with this one. I have imagination, not astute studious scholarly abilities such as yourself and others. I can share ideas and photos...weights etc... I come here to allow more capable, willing and interested people also to learn from it. and and as a shortcut to some info, I hope they would share. I think my research may always seem lacking, I will never produce any threads that are exposition like as many of you do. I am quite satisfied already with the sword and my limited knowledge of the many possible histories. the sword looks like chilled steel and has the leaping dragon, I read about how they could possibly throw these swords, this one does feel like it could cut through 10 other swords . very fluid movement despite its size, good balance point, no vibration.. sometimes I am worried people are afraid to give they're positive opinions as they don't want to help confirm a bonafide example and educate other potential buyers. I understand for swords of good old example such as ibans , they can make some members bid a little crazy or even some fall for fake handles. experts can be wrong, there was the recent post about the museum with a replica that turned out to be the real deal. I really hope Philip will come take a look at these new examples I am sharing I own two and have seen 3 total with the exact same dragon carving. someone , somewhere, sometime, may be able to identify this dragon mark and it may solve a big part of this mystery.

1st March 2023, 08:05 PM	#6
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	maybe my definition of bastard isn't right... here's synonyms, illegitimate, misbegotten, baseborn, spurious, supposititious, motherless, fatherless, nameless;

1st March 2023, 08:23 PM	#7
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	late 19c-to early 20c as you called it would be Qing , seems the market acceptance, perception and value of these swords has gone up quite a bit recently. I just looked at all the ones sold on mandarin mansion, I like mine more , I wouldn't trade it for any I seen. I also saw the work done on polishing some of these, where the brass was old like mine with rot? and the rayskin had heavy varnish? removed. I also seen great river taoist center swords on youtube and got to say mine looks very well made compared to his explanations and comparisons I see one with the same orange ray skin and same fittings as an example I provided ,similar blade but no dragon I could see, it is for sale now, called Ming, listed for thousands...